072 - Real Talk About Resumes with @DanfromHR

Technology, the internet, and everyone's gosh darn opinions are making the topic of resumes red hot right now. Back by popular demand, @danfromhr, joins our hosts to discuss the do’s, don’ts and “please god, no” of resumes in an ATS world.

* Follow Dan on:

TikTok & IG: @DanFromHr

Twitter: @Hr_dan

LinkedIn: Daniel Space


Listen here





Alexa

This episode is brought to you by Udemy. Leaders Faced Challenges Every Single Day Evolving Workplace Culture, Closing Skills Gap. And let's not forget about the global recession nipping at our collective heels. That's why you mean business is bring you a new podcast called Leading Up Your Fresh Perspectives and insights from business and leadership experts. Every episode of Short Only 20 Minutes ensures inspiration, advice and research to help you work, lead and weave differently.



Alexa

Host Alan Todd has seen firsthand how these challenges can drive creativity, exciting business outcomes and inventive spirit still leading up on your favorite podcasting app or follow leading up so you never miss an opportunity to move business forward.



Alexa

All our ties in keto.



Tyson

Oh, how are you doing? I don't know what that means, but that means.



Alexa

That means. Hi, Tyson.



Dan

What's up? What? I don't eat. I don't.



Alexa

You don't take Spanish in Canada?



Tyson

No, we sell bones. Let's.



Dan

Oh, right. With just say.



Alexa

Yeah, I forgot.



Tyson

And you probably know more than I do on it. No.



Dan

Not really.



Alexa

I know enough to confuse people when I travel. That's about it. Yeah. What's up? How's things?



Tyson

Things are good, and I'm kind of, like, working through a little bit of a head cold, so my voice might be particularly annoying today. So bear with us.



Alexa

It's okay if my voice is annoying basically every day. So welcome to my world.



Tyson

Okay, Ray, right?



Alexa

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Ray Romano over here. Kathy Griffin. Ray Romano. I just I love it. I love. I love the haters.



Tyson

Whatever.



Alexa

Keep it coming.



Tyson

Yeah. You're pissing someone also.



Alexa

Keep it coming. Keep it coming. I love the idea of people spending their Friday nights making fun of my TIKTOKS or a voice on our podcast. It makes me mad of it. Yeah. So anything new, anything new in the world of of H.R. back at it headed into the end of the year?



Tyson

Yeah. You know, just like everyone else right now, I'm just trudging through Q4 stuff. It's like we don't do anything all year. And then all of a sudden, it's like, hey, maybe we should, like, catch up on all the things. And so it's just working through a lot of that. And, you know, it's, it's so funny. Like, I joke all the time about things like annual enrollment and like how I don't have like any information on these types of things and like, oftentimes, like, we're going through it just at the same time as everybody else.



Tyson

And like, our business partners don't really know anything about benefits no more than the next person. So there's like a lot of that happening. And then like on top of that, you've got like your surveys, your reviews, your comp your everybody's like thinking about salaries and stuff like that. So anyways, it's all the things. It's a lot of fun.



Tyson

I love Q4. We used to call it I'm all for.



Alexa

Such a shit show.



Tyson

Funny I like that. Full Fury. And then we all got our hand slapped, so we couldn't say that anymore.



Alexa

But to be fair, like it is, it is a complete shit show especially, and I'm not sure it's as bad in Canada, but like in the States, open enrollment for benefits is a fucking nightmare. Like, it just, it just I don't know why we're still doing it this way, but like, because everything in the United States is, is based around the health care system, which is a whole nother ball of wax.



Alexa

We don't have enough time or alcohol to talk about today. But yeah, it seems a little insane that like, it's like, hey, I need you. I need to shove a bunch of information down your throat about benefits so that you don't fuck up your enrollment for January one when your health care restarts. But also, let me give you a bunch of feedback.



Alexa

Get a bunch of feedback from you and like do all this like other holiday nonsense to try to, like, engage you at the same time. It's like, why, what? Why do we do this to ourselves?



Tyson

It's why it's.



Alexa

The H.R. calendar is a crazy, crazy thing.



Tyson

I just, like, want an H.R. calendar. That's like my goal right now and like, my own life is like making an H.R. calendar that can be, like, followed in repeatable but very quickly, on the point of like health care, I'm going to make a commitment on air right now so that. Oh, boy, do some homework. Okay. So in the New Year, we are going to review the movie The Good Nurse.



Tyson

Okay. Perspective.



Dan

Okay.



Tyson

Can't wait, everybody. It's on Netflix. It's like 8 hours long. So I'm giving y'all ample notice so you can put in the time and watch it and then we're going to.



Alexa

Tell this news to meet your kids.



Tyson

So there's news, but you got to just sit.



Alexa

And I've just been given my I've been vocal and told I have to watch the good years.



Tyson

I just gave everyone good homework. Hey, it's a good movie. It's our Aronofsky or whatever is the director. So he did like Black Swan and all that. So it's a good movie and it really makes your head spin. So there we go. All right, cool.



Alexa

All right. Well, we have some other commitments I need to make here before we get too far into this, which is have you joined the people of society yet? Or perhaps, as we call it, popular community of people have sent our professionals and listeners of the show join our community to use the forum for peer feedback. Download Awesome Resources written by your peers, connect with thought leaders and H.R. and benefits space and get access to free courses.



Alexa

All included. Use the code people problems at people op society dot com for 20% off your membership today again that's the code people problems at people op society dot com. Without further ado, I will just transition us to bring back by popular demand our guest today Daniel Space who is a director HRP in the tech space and the H.R. social media mogul behind at Dan from H.R. on tik talk and as I like to say the spiciest guy on LinkedIn.



Alexa

Welcome back Daniel how are you doing.



Tyson

Welcome back.



Dan

Well thank you. I love those introductions. I wish everyone would start like this. Like, what a great way to start my workday.



Alexa

Yeah, podcasting is better than caffeine. You just you're just, like, on, you know, just incredible. Thank you. So just I'll just announce you like this is daniel from house h.r. Like, you know, like when you enter the room.



Dan

Yeah.



Alexa

Awesome. How have you been, daniel? What's what's going on in your world? What are you what are you jazzed about right now?



Dan

Oh, man. New York City salary transparency went into effect yesterday, and everyone had to go.



Tyson

Yes.



Dan

It was so fun. Yes, we like, i think a lot of companies did did the right thing. And I was consulting with a few companies over this year to make sure that they had everything done and ready but i think they're especially on linkedin and people have made a lot of tiktok videos. I want to on on it saying this is ridiculous.



Dan

This range is like 120 to 160. That's not like you have no competition information. It's actually it's more rage. Yeah. And just wanted to remind everyone, like, this is the second day it came out, like there's going to be like that Citibank thing that is going kind of viral. That one or one of their roles is zero to $2 million as.



Alexa

Just so that people know. First and foremost, let's, let's just tell them what the transparency law is that went into effect and then maybe what you consider Daniel to be the quote unquote right thing.



Dan

Okay. So the it was originally supposed to be May 1st. It got pushed November 1st and now a whole active job postings to roles that are based in New York City or roles that have been approved to work in New York City remotely have to have a good faith salary range on the job description. Yes. This includes all salaried, non salaried exempt nonexempt, part time volunteer or volunteer part time, all all types have to have a salary range.



Dan

I did a basic audit of about 500 companies quickly, about 300 I thought did a pretty good job. Like the range was relatively reasonable. I found a few outliers, but I understood why there were outliers because there are companies that usually don't have a level set until they interview. And then some are just ridiculous. Right?



Alexa

What are the ones that are ridiculous? Like, what are the ones that you're just like you? You didn't understand the homework.



Dan

So I can't confirm if it's true or not. It's just been all in the recruiter and H.R. things that have gone viral. Morning. Morning. Social is a newsletter that I follow up from Morning Brew, and they also captured it where it looks like there's an ad from Citibank. This is the range of zero to $2 million is.



Alexa

That is that because of like stock compensation or like what?



Dan

Like. Yeah. But so the thing is with the salary transparency only affects your salary it doesn't touch bonus or I was going to say.



Tyson

Is it like a sales commission?



Dan

I can't find what the role is.



Tyson

It's not commission.



Dan

Based I know that's where the question does that Like can someone send me the ad itself and not the screenshot that's going around because I can't. Yeah. Yeah. Well.



Tyson

Usually like like 20 give or take plus or -20. 30% is usually like a solid range.



Dan

That's I would say that's even a little small. What I'd normally see is up to 15% is what I see based like kind of like this, this graph on how high the level is and the experience it is. And then a job that goes.



Alexa

Straight up to 50 or 15.



Dan

50.



Alexa

50.



Dan

Yeah, that's a lot. And there are a few large companies, especially within the tech space, that when they interview you, they don't know what level you're going to be utilizing as a way to figure it out. So there are a few where I like, I understand it, but those are the sort of things you're just very privileged with my, my understanding of working in that space.



Dan

That's like, that's absolutely absurd. This is not transparency down with the companies. And I'm like, it is day to everybody. Calm down.



Alexa

They will also. But also this is the thing I think is really important for you to mention, Daniel, like as someone who's well versed in this is like there are instances where companies are hiring, like it adjusts just as they learn the candidate, right? Like it's not, it's not. And especially in startups, especially in fast moving companies, like those corporations are changing all the time.



Alexa

If they even have a system to do it, like structured, you know, if they've even put that in place yet. Right. So I think it's it's for some people to remember, like, hey, this is giving transparency to the candidate that if they're saying the range is 120 to 160 and you're being offered 85 there's a red flag but and you should be able to take action based on that as a candidate.



Alexa

But at the same time it is not sitting here and guaranteeing you anything because your experience, your level, your etc. is all going to be taken into account before you are placed in that, in that role. And so like everyone has to remember that like it is not perfect, but it is better than zero point. Exactly, exactly. And it and it tells you.



Tyson

Start.



Alexa

Exactly. And it tells you where you fall within. Like let's also not forget, as I like to remind listeners all the time, like labor and hiring is a market like it's, it's still a market regardless of it they put a price tag on it or not or they change the range or the range is tighter, the range is wide.



Alexa

It's still a market for labor and skills. So it's going to be somewhat fluid but it's better than not having any idea or any transparency.



Tyson

So people people I'm actually shop like people really don't know like what they should be making and what they should be asking for. Like since being back at work, like I'm having this conversation a lot and people are like, I don't even know ballpark. Like what I should be asking for like this last couple of years has resulted in so much, you know, hypergrowth, you know, salaries went through the roof, but now we're in a position where it's like or we're kind of like holding, cutting back, maybe like tightening the purse strings.



Tyson

So it's like, should I be asking for more? Like is, you know, my job valued the same amount as it was even just months ago, given like the changes in like the the economy and that sort of thing and like, should I just be happy to be here? You know, that that's sort of like questioning is coming up I'm very interested to see what happens in New York.



Tyson

The Pay Transparency Act in Ontario comes up every time we have like liberal governments and then conservatives come in and like crush it. So we've been we've had that like dangled in front of us a few times and we've been like scattering as each our people to like get ready for pay transparency. And then it never comes to fruition because our government changes in the whole thing gets crushed.



Tyson

But yeah, I'm interested to see like how it how it works in New York, one of our like highest paid states, I imagine so also warning if you're sitting in somewhere else, don't go and look at the New York phrases to inform your to inform your salary requests.



Dan

Now that if you do just panel right. I'm so sorry. But if you do check in New York City salaries, the thing to do to combat your feelings of horror is then look at the rents right after that. And that will just.



Alexa

Yeah, exactly because they look at the tax rates have been looks at look at the rents and you'll understand.



Dan

Where you'll be.



Alexa

That probably all comes out in the wash end. At the end of the day, yeah. Amazing. All right. Well, this is actually a really good transition because we're very excited to talk to you today, Daniel, about the wild and wonderful world of resumes and so I think to transition here as people are thinking about like the market and labor and all these things, you know, the landscape for resumes is just a fucking rollercoaster.



Alexa

And, you know, I think I would love to hear from you just sort of like an opening gambit on like, where are we at with like what the fuck is the resume tool and like how you should think of it given today's sort of state, right? So let's remind everyone that the resumes that we did like in college, in high school and you know, ten, 50 years ago, like they're not the same as what a resume is now because there's all this technology involved there's just hypergrowth in hiring in the way that people do things at systems.



Alexa

So I'd love to hear just from you, Daniel, first and foremost, like what your take is on the landscape for this and then the tool itself.



Dan

So I think the landscape is it's still very much the most powerful tool I've seen. A lot of people try to say, oh, well, you know, now it's going to be the time for the video resume. Or you can tell that's not that.



Alexa

Never took off.



Dan

It. We never did. I don't think it's going to the as as much as people hate it. And I can understand why it's not a very fun and exciting thing to do. And you have to play a little bit of the game with it right now. It is the most powerful tool. And every single job that you apply to will ask for one, right?



Dan

It's a necessary evil and part of the tool.



Tyson

Wait, can we can we go back? Maybe I've just like.



Alexa

One sentence in and you want to go back.



Tyson

Oh, I know what a lot of I mean, what do we mean that the resumes that people are using now are so different than the resumes that one would have used five, ten years ago? Because I'm still seeing the same and I'm still using my resume that my mom drafted it up for me. I've just, you know, like added the experience to it, but like, what is the what is different and what.



Dan

Should what did we.



Alexa

Talk about.



Dan

It? What did we do?



Tyson

What did I miss? What did Tyson miss?



Dan

No, I think the I have no problem at being my age. I graduated in 2002, and my dad helped me with my first resume and it was like skills, experience, objective summary, volunteer work, hobbies. And I think that so I think the the primary elements that you have on a resume have not significantly changed other than the fact we move things like summary and like hobbies and skill or hobbies and volunteer work.



Dan

But the what I think and I won't speak for like so but what I think she was getting into, what I've seen is that you have to be far more focused on keyword and keyword strings. Because of the advent of ATS when you used to just send a paper resume or used to fax a resume or email a resume, you were just sending it right to a person who can read it.



Dan

But now you have this piece of software that you have to consider first.



Tyson

Okay, so still same old resume, just, you know, you got to make sure you're catching the keywords in your descriptors, descriptions.



Alexa

Right? And, and some of the sort of I think maybe historical flexibilities or like stylistic things that people used to be able to be more flexible with or not ATS and system friendly. So for example. Yeah, hobbies formatting graphic design of your resume, multi-page resumes, which I've never been a fan of, but or CVS as the academic world used to call like it's an in academia, it's like perfectly normal to have like a four page long resume because has all your publications and all and like there are some some changes to the way that you would accept someone's format if you were hiring for a certain role.



Alexa

And now a lot of technology has in a weird way kind of like annihilated some of that. But just take for example, LinkedIn resume. So for example, and you know, we can talk about all the annoying things that people get up in arms about it, about resumes in a second, like where to put your objective summary and what it should say and should you even have one.



Alexa

But you you will take what appears to be if you were sent a word doc or a PDF or a resume that looks good is written well, all these things. And then you translate it into that automatic LinkedIn like like resumé reader and it comes out looking like shit and stuff gets missed. And so what you wind up getting as the person who is hiring is.



Alexa

I had a role recently where I think we got 275 resumes in less than 24 hours for a role that was like fairly specific, a lot of which is just sort of crap as you learn when you do enough of these things like, you know, LinkedIn hiring, you realize that a lot of that's just not going to be very good.



Alexa

But you start to see when it's pulling in the data from those documents and from those resumes that it's like Swiss cheese and so you have to actually like look at the format and then like word versus PDF. Anyway, I'll, I'll, I'll leave it to Daniels or jump in on these things now. But it's not like the, the flexibility and some of the like stylistic graces I think we used to have when resumes were like I think a human read and overlooked every time have sort of been like sliced and diced thanks to all this tech.



Dan

And I think that's a great point. I make some tik tok content about it and I feel especially bad for graphic designers or art directors. Yeah in the creative space because they use the resume as a way to showcase that. And I always say, you know, you can have two resumes, one can be your, your vision and how creative you want to be, and you can use different colors and fun boxes and the roll icons in those fun little graphs that make you seem like you're playing a video game.



Dan

You're like, I'm a little bird negotiation. I'm a level seven and a player relations but if you have an email address, you can send that. Is that just going directly to a person? But if you're uploading it through an ATS, what the Atlas says, it just scans it scan things and takes pictures. And it does not do a good job of translating boxes of translate graphics.



Dan

In some cases, if you use like it, like one person I saw used a graphic box for each one of their professional summaries and the ATS had collected all that nice and you know, you have a recruitment list. 300 applications, they're not even seeing yours and they're not interested in. Right, right.



Alexa

They're literally just going to take that resume and be like, it's not I've got so many of them. I'm going to throw the one with the black boxes out. Like, I just have to I have to skim. I have to go through this yeah.



Tyson

Hold on. I haven't applied for a job for a while, but when you do, you upload your resume and then the next thing you do is you type your resume out into the little boxes. Does that not like for the most part, like, that's what I experienced at least.



Dan

So I personally hate that feature because it never does a good job of it, like. And so I've gotten to a point where I get really aggravated on behalf of jobseekers, especially because I was just doing interviewing myself, like, okay, I found this job. I want to apply to it. Okay, great. Now I have to fill out 45 minutes of Who are you?



Dan

What are you from? Voluntarily self identify. What are you, what are you interested in? What's your education? What's your work experience? Okay, now upload your résumé. I've double my risk and then it goes to the resume fields. It's like, Okay, can you look at this? I'm like, Okay, so you put my jobs. Is my education nothing? Oh yeah.



Dan

All the dates are screwed up. And but the thing that upsets me is all of this is in my LinkedIn. You can easily find anything that you need from my LinkedIn or from my resume. So I had actually started to see is that companies that have not made their, their user interface far more easy and far more accessible, you're just you just upload a resume and you don't have to worry about doing anything afterwards are getting a lot better candidates.



Alexa

I literally just read resumes and if I if I think there's anything there, I literally just go to their LinkedIn profile. And if they're something like a designer, I just go to their website. I'm like, I don't just screw all of this. Like I'm just going to go to like the best asset I have that tells the most complete story, which is usually at this point, someone's LinkedIn profile or someone's read like like resume a website where like they get to tell me the story the way they want to, but that only works if the system picks up the link correctly, which also sometimes doesn't happen.



Tyson

So okay, not including we're not including cover letters anymore.



Alexa

Oh, my God. Don't give me Daniel, how do we feel about COVID? No, please, we really want to get you started. That's literally the point of this concern.



Dan

So I, I don't know if you saw, but I was featured in Daily Dot because one of my videos went viral and it was about thank you notes, but in that video I spoke about thank you notes are the most useless element of the recruiting, the whole recruiting, a change aside from COVID rules, which are just as almost useless.



Dan

There are very notable exceptions. I think I helped a number of teachers translate their experience from going into kids education and turning into instructional designers or project managers. In EdTech. And using a cover letter is a great way to introduce yourself for a large scale career change or an industry change. But other than that, and you can probably test this if you read resumes, no one reads a cover letter.



Dan

It is all the exact same template. Everyone use the exact same format. They just change those four words. It is such an and useless piece of administrative homework and when they say.



Alexa

It's the same way I feel about those LinkedIn messages you can send when you apply to a job, everyone just sends the same boilerplate message. And I did. Yeah, I did it. I did a I did a video that also went quasi viral about that. That was like, don't send me that thing. Like, don't send me the boilerplate shit because I don't read it.



Alexa

And all it tells me is that you click the button that everybody else clicks. Not that you put any time into this like and cover letters are the opposite because people put time into them the first the first one, like the template.



Dan

And then after that, right after that, they just changed the seven to seven black in words just based on whatever they will is.



Alexa

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's funny because I wonder if you think there is like just to go back to a world where we were doing cover letters and people were taking them seriously and they were coming with a human who read them, with the human who read the same resume, like.



Dan

What was.



Alexa

The real benefit of those? Or where do you think the like core intent of that was? And is there something to be kept from that prior, you know, prehistoric you know, I don't know what the word is like. It's almost like a habit, right? Like that was like a career habit that we had that everyone had to submit a cover letter.



Alexa

But like what? Where was the good in that? And is there anything to take from that?



Dan

I don't think there was, because I think what what the value that a cover letter brings is that it introduced you to a potential employer. So before the time they're even resumes people would write letters of interest to after they all want that and saying, hey, I saw your I saw your ad in the post four, four, four again on Friday or like a newspaper or handler, you know, all these like 30 and 40 1940 positions and you would send it, you know, just saying, hey, I'm interested, here's my experience, here's why I think I could bring value to you I have some experience and this, some experience in this.



Dan

And that started to then work into the resume and then the resume and cover letter became the thing to do to get the cover letter as letter of introduction and then your resume. All of that changed with like the digital transformation of recruiting and job boards like Monster and CareerBuilder, where all of a sudden everyone could apply to jobs and all of a sudden, especially like starting 2005 to 2006, every new generation just dumped so many more people into the workforce.



Dan

So now instead of getting potentially 25 applicants where someone could reasonably read every cover letter and be charmed, now you had four to 500 applicants and now you're not sitting into the hiring and the hiring manager anymore, now you're sending it to a recruiter, and now there's LinkedIn. It gives you the opportunity to talk about who you are and what you like and the things that you've done so that at this point the information you're going to get on a cover letter you can easily find by reading the resume and reading it.



Dan

So why this extra piece of homework? Especially because most recruiters just skip them.



Tyson

Okay. I'm going to be devil's advocate here for a second. Do it because I'm finding less and less value out of like when I'm like looking at resumes. I am so bored I can't even like read one sentence of them. I'm like, everybody's the exact same. Everybody is the same. University degree, everybody is the same. And experienced what I find would be valuable use of the cover letter is when I have someone and again, like whether this is a cover letter or not.



Tyson

But what I want this person to do is say, this is why I'm interested in you as a company. This is why I'm interested in the company. This is why I'm interested in this specific role I can look at their resume that's literally a cookie cutter of every other single resume and be like, Okay, yeah, they've got like the bare bones, whatever.


Tyson

But like, if someone can say to me like, this is why I'm right for your company, this is why I'm right for this role specifically, I do see value in that. Again, if it's done right and if that's the request, I think that there are some companies that put in their little ads that, like, you should like write a letter of interest or like why you're interested in coming, that sort of thing.



Tyson

I think that if they are read and reflected upon, I think that that can really be interesting. Like, I still love the question, why do you want to work here now? The answer is not because of the culture. That's not the answer. But there are really an awful answers that can, you know, really indicate whether or not you're going to work out here or not.



Dan

So interesting, interesting points. I will say I get it to a degree and it's funny because I had the side of wanting to make sure that I have an engaged workforce and people that believe in the company mission because that tends to be more productive and they tend to be more engaged, especially if you're rewarded at the other side.



Dan

I was just the candidate and I just went through that whole candidate experience. I could easily agree with you if working for your company was interesting, if it was like, Hey, you know, I love video games and you're a video game industry. So let me tell you how much I love video games. I'm a big fan of your product, but if I apply to 100 different jobs that are all variations of digital software apps, I'm not I don't care which one.



Dan

You're the one in Indiana. The one in Ohio, they both pay about the same. The boss, about 3000 boys. I'm not going to be able to convince you, and I don't want to lie and say, Oh my God, I'm so excited to do this. It sounds great. We're like the one company that sold little tiny French spoons that wanted to hire me I'm like, I can't get excited this.



Dan

So, like, I get it. I just think that could be part of the interview.



Alexa

It's well, so this is why it's hard. Because it's like because everyone can do the same things. The bar for those communications has dropped, and therefore people are taking them less seriously. But like with good sales, which we talk about all the time is like, you can send a boilerplate email to a thousand people and you might get some opens and you might get some people that respond, but the clients that you have done a little that you really care about winning, that you've done a little homework on, that you've done real personal outreach to that is just you can just tell every single one of us can tell where we get an email that is hand



Alexa

that is actually handwritten by a person and one that is basically a fucking template with short codes. That's like, Hey Daniel, do you need help solving your race woes? Like, you know, that's coming from a system, right? Like it's not a personal email versus like, Hey, Daniel, how are you doing? I heard you on this podcast. Like, I love this.



Alexa

I'd really love to reach out to you about that. Like, you know, that person has probably actually heard you on that podcast or actually been to your website or whatever, right? You, you can always tell. The problem is, I think because we're in hyper speed with all these things because of technology, right? So resumes have just like, oh my God, I get 3000 of them.



Alexa

Like, I don't even know what to read for anymore or, oh, you know, cover letters are useless because they're all just the fucking same. Like thank you notes. They're all just the fucking same, right? Like, I actually think thank you notes are very important because it shows initiative. I realize that it's a ridiculous thing to request of someone who is applying.



Alexa

Like, obviously they have the initiative, they fucking applied, but it's a way to stand out. So like if you write me a really good, really thoughtful thank you note, I'm going to read it and I'm going to appreciate that if you don't, I'm not going to hold it against you.



Dan

I'm reading and appreciating. I'm yeah, but if you make a decision based on it, we're going to tell.



Alexa

No, that's ridiculous. That's no.



Tyson

No, hold on. And the other thing, the other thing that I find very, very awkward is when the thank you note is actually linked to a LinkedIn request like friendship request. So it's like they go to like the next day they hire me on LinkedIn and it's like.



Dan

Hey, in the know, I just I just.



Tyson

Wanted to thank you for talking to me. And I'm like, oh, shit. Like, I don't have this person on LinkedIn. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna hire this person or not like that. Just, like, made me feel really awkward. So that's another thing that I found like a little.



Dan

A little.



Alexa

Weird. Anyway, I don't want to get off on a tangent. Thank you notes. But go ahead, Daniel.



Dan

Sorry, I was about to say, have either of you gotten a thank you note that had the wrong name?



Alexa

No, that's pretty bad. I've been called the wrong name on a date before, but.



Dan

Which is even worse?



Alexa

It's. It's definitely worse, but on the same spectrum of terrible.



Tyson

But I missed her a lot.



Alexa

I guess I say a lot. I get thanks, Alex. Mr. Tyson. That's great.



Tyson

Mr. Tyson.



Alexa

That's great. Yeah, I just get Alex a lot instead of Alexa. I'm like, just. I just. I signed it a lot. I signed my email. Alexa, how did you how did we truncate.



Dan

This more about it? Yeah, yeah.



Alexa

No, I think yeah. So so let's really let's talk really quickly. Some tangible stuff for that for the listeners. Like, what are some of the like given everything you know to be true right now? Daniel, given your recent experience going through this personally, like, what are some of the, like, must do's and must don't.



Dan

Fear for resume construction? Yes, I have I have looked at way too many resumes over the last two years with all my content and whatnot. To a point now where I've actually gotten very good at it. I'll always test my theories. I'll run my resume through different types of tests and have people see how they how they map out and how they they rank and search scores so here's like my best practices.



Dan

One is you have to maximize real estate. The very, very first thing that you pop out to the person reading it is why you would be a good match. And that's either from the companies that you work with, the titles or the things that you did. I see time and time again people have like a professional summary and objective their skills at the top of the educational top and professional experience is like almost like maximizing real estate you want as quickly as possible.



Dan

It's like a LinkedIn headline that needs to capture your attention.



Alexa

So I, I'm anti long objective statement that says the same shit that everyone else is. Objective statement says that you're a great communicator looking for a good team environment. Like, yeah, who's knocking everybody else? Exactly. Who works for you while you're relevant.



Dan

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. No, exactly that so the most important thing that I tell people is that there's three different types of bullet. There's what I call a bullet be bullets and bullets. And they have three different features. It's the what's the how and the impact. So if you, if you have all three is a have to be have wanted to see and then there's what I called d bullets, which are basically like the silver bullets like perform design duties as requested.



Dan

And what you want is to have as many A and B bullets as possible. And I feel that telling people that gets them out of the perspective of, okay, I manage social media marketing for this company. Okay.



Alexa

Right.



Dan

So and and.



Alexa

A and B bullets are again just for people one more time.



Dan

So how impact.



Alexa

What I did, how I did it and the impact that that had.



Dan

So you have all three that's enabling. If you have two out of three, it's a B you have one, it's a C.



Alexa

Okay. Got it. I'm all about the impact. I'm all about the impact.



Dan

But that's that's one of the most important things. Now, you can't have all eight bullets because then you're just going to have like paragraphs, right? But like, the difference between I manage social media for this company versus utilizing for different social media has put together a strategy that increase conversion 18% increase following by 23% year over year like those are those are impact that shows what you did I did it and what the result was.



Tyson

Yeah I like the how I think even more than the impact because like you know what sometimes shit hits the fan and like you know things don't work out or whatever but like the how you did it really shows me that you can like think strategically or like in a creative out-of-the-box way. Especially like when I'm thinking about like hiring H.R. people like, look, sister knows that things don't always work out okay, like it happens, but, you know, the way that you did it and handle it is like super important.



Dan

Absolutely.



Alexa

Yeah. I always scan for and this is really interesting because I don't think I realized I was doing this. I think I'm always looking for Siebel or Abel. It's and then if I don't see them, I'm looking for B, because for me, it's like if you can't speak to the impact that you had, then I don't have any understanding that.



Alexa

I don't have any confidence that you understand how to have an impact. But sometimes it is hard, depending on the role for you. Like graphic designers are not going to have a bunch of like sales numbers and conversion rates on their resume. Right? So then then the tactics and the and the, the, the how is become really important because it tells me that, you know, how to contribute at least qualitatively, if not quantitatively.



Alexa

But if I see a resume that's like a lot of like I performed duties as prescribed give or take the role.



Dan

Like it's not telling you anything.



Alexa

It doesn't tell me anything unless I'm it's a role where like I literally just need you to stamp widgets, right? Like, okay, cool.



Tyson

So you don't you are just like but sometimes like, like do you look at a resume and just go like all.



Dan

I usually feel that way with a lot of recent college grads, and I feel all but I feel so furious because the college education system is such a scam for the United States. At least I want to speak for other countries, but it's like, here, pay us $35,000. We're going to market you from the earliest age talking about how you need to go to college in order to have any kind of a life.



Alexa

And then you're going to graduate with nothing.



Dan

Relevant and.



Tyson

Just to.



Dan

Lay in as career counseling sessions that are giving resume advice from like the 1990 they're talking about cover letters and thanks, you know. Oh my God, oh my God you read. Yeah, yeah.



Alexa

And then you're dealing with a 21 year old who like doesn't know how to use an Excel spreadsheet and you're like, what are we doing.



Dan

No, but you know something to teach you all about the Pythagorean theorem like that will ever come up my management space.



Tyson

Yeah just you in Canada most people they go to university and then they have to go to college after it's like a little bit differently in college you actually get like job training. So like, for example, like, I got my degree in Bachelor of Science Psychology couldn't get a job, so I need to go to college to study H.R..



Tyson

Oh, my God. Like a lot of people do around here, but one thing that we were told in college is that we had to change our resumé for every job that we're applying to. Is that.



Dan

True? Oh, God, no.



Tyson

I cater your resume.



Dan

So the theory of that or why that became like an urban myth is that what people think is I think they think that a recruiter, when they post a job description is posting keywords and keyword strings utilized for that, for that specific job description. So if you look at 100 different groups, they're all going to be relatively the same.



Dan

That meets the same keyword and keyword truth. It might be different order. You might have one that's focus, a little more data analytics might have one. Let's focus more on employee relations. But the recruiter is not programing the keyword keyword strings against the job description. So the way that I the way that I think about it in the way that I advise it is that if you have one particular job title that is a well-recognized job, whether it's project manager FPGA specialist, software engineer, marketing specialist, that is a well-respected, sterile title that all companies have agreed for the general definitions as it relates to market research.



Dan

If that is what your job is, you do not need a different resume for each one. But what I do recommend is that people that especially like for smaller companies, like if your role was like half operations manager, half executive assistant, or have project manager, have administrative assistant, then it's good to have one resume for bulls, one that highlights the project management, one that highlights what's in your resume for every job description is such a huge waste of time, you should take a partner exam.



Alexa

So in your hobby section.



Tyson

It's not like you're applying to that degree of jobs or like probably like for me, like it'd be like our business partner, H.R. manager, H.R. director kind of thing, right? So like, I'm applying to like H.R. business partner and like rocket scientist. So like, you know, it doesn't make sense. You'd have to cater your, your, your resumes.



Dan

You.



Alexa

Want to go. And again, let's go back to the goal and I think to, to wrap up your like sort of dos here, Daniel, like the goal here is to be able to be seen quickly as relevant with enough color and curiosity by the.



Dan

Recruiter.



Alexa

To get flagged. Like that's like your resume is not going to tell your life story perfectly. It is not. And by making some of these decisions, you are going to rule out visibility to other things. Right? It's like you can't do anything on a resume without a pro and a con because it's all a tradeoff. You've got a limited amount of real estate, especially with ATS systems that are only so many things.



Alexa

So the goal of your resume let's not forget here, is not to tell your life story. It is to be captured by the right systems for relevant roles. I always actually get really frustrated when I get a bunch of resumes for a role that aren't relevant, not because it's just a waste of my fucking time, but also because it's a waste of those candidates.



Alexa

Like those candidates now think they're in the pool for a role that they're absolutely not qualified for. Like it's totally off.



Dan

But the goal.



Alexa

Of your resume is to be see, to get flagged in the right pools for the right roles. To be seen as having like the most relevant and sort of, I think, well-articulated history of titles. Like Here's the I can very quickly get a snapshot of your story. And then three be sort of like, you know, meet all this sort of like professional, interesting personal boxes that someone is like, I want to have a conversation with.



Dan

You right like.



Alexa

That's kind of all you can ask for in one to two pages of PDF, ten point.



Dan

Font.



Alexa

And that's so like, don't overcomplicate it.



Dan

No, I totally agree. I think that's the right thing.



Alexa

Yeah.



Tyson

Kind of things make you interesting, though. Like, what kind of things? Like, like you said, like, you know, people want to have a conversation with you. Like what what little tidbits can people throw on their go ahead?



Dan

For me and especially for other apps, I find one of our biggest weaknesses is that we don't use data and analytics. And so I think I've gotten a lot of really nice movement, especially as I was recently looking. There was not one person out of all the interviews I had that said, these are some really impressive analytics. I've never seen this before.



Dan

Not only was I doing attrition reporting, but like an increase in engagement and an increase in workforce percentage some compensation modeling that we had done for machine learners and Spotify. So and I think like when I see other HBP resumes, in many cases it's heavy employee relations. It's like high level design helping drive a talent strategy. But to really put actionable numbers led to so many great conversations in the interview.



Dan

I've just like had it like how do you know that you increased engagement 28% by this new job that we matrix for tech research, that sort of thing.



Alexa

Yeah, I would say that's definitely and anytime you see like a nontraditional role I think for me talking about like we talked about before, like, like impact or even like sales impact, I'm like, oh, that's really interesting that this like, you know, product person is talking to me specifically about improving like sales pipeline like or oh, this person like if you're able to like pull in some sort of cross-functional impact or reference, I always think that's super interesting.



Alexa

But just from a person perspective, like I am always and maybe this is just, you know, my this is this not just maybe this is my own personal bias is just for a curiosity in other things like.



Dan

Or.



Alexa

Do you read, do you travel, do you have some interesting hobby? Do you speak another.



Tyson

Language.



Dan

Like freight, which is.



Alexa

Hobbies? But but it's also like like.



Tyson

Is back on the resume.



Alexa

I always put I always I always think it's interesting when someone has again, this is because of what I tend to hire for as a as a business owner and an entrepreneur is like I'm always looking for someone who's a self-starter. So if you've got even if it feels right, like even if you've got because I think sometimes people are scared to put like I tried to start a business and it failed on their resume.



Alexa

I actually want to see that shit all day. If you spent six months trying to run an ecommerce business selling kiddy T-shirts, like, I want to see that shit because it tells me that you're a self-starter and it tells me that you had the ambition to do it. I actually don't give a shit that it failed. Most businesses fail.



Tyson

Hold on. Now I'm feeling like I need to cater my resume again.



Alexa

Well, again, I'm I'm. I'm saying this with my own bias, and I'm saying this with a bias towards the roles that I tend to now frequent more, which is I need more self-starters, more, more.



Dan

Sort of.



Alexa

Entrepreneurial roles, as it were. But I don't know. And look, I actually think the hobby section is great. What I used to hate about the old resumes was when you would put skills and everyone would just list like every single Microsoft Office application, Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel at Microsoft, PowerPoint, Microsoft. I was like, Okay, yeah, I got it.



Alexa

Cool.



Tyson

And nobody really knows how to use Excel. Like, I.



Alexa

Know. Yeah, everyone puts Excel and I'm like, Okay, if you can run a macro, I believe you. But otherwise you look up.



Dan