073 - HR Wallflowers

'Tis the season to be grateful! Which is also the perfect time to dissect and nitpick the persona of the HR professional. Are they all wallflowers? Or did the job make them so? What are the best and worst characteristics of how the HR persona operates? A fun and introspective debate from the duo on this week's episode. Thanks for listening!



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Alexa

What's up, Tyson?



Tyson

What is up is that I'm coming at you from the fastest Internet of all time. Oh, so what.



Alexa

Happened to your country ass wifi.



Tyson

Boss Let me let me roll back a little bit. So I guess this was last week. I'm trying to upload one of our videos onto Instagram. Okay. So, like, this is what I do. I spend a lot of time on Instagram, a lot of uploading my upload speed. Get this right. When I did the speed test, it was point six.



Tyson

Seven was my point. Okay, so like.



Alexa

Let's make a big.



Tyson

One, six, seven. So here I am, like trying to upload this video and it's like timely, right? Like, I really want to get this video up posted on Instagram. So I'm like, screw this. I'm walking to the community center. So I pack up the baby and we start walking into a beautiful sunny day. And as I'm walking like I live like in a forested area, so I can only really see one part of the sky.



Tyson

Like when I look at my house, I look and I'm like, all right, we're good. So off we go. And as I'm looking up again, I'm like, oh, crap. There's like some clouds in the sky. And it's about two and a half kilometers to the community center. Okay, I sound so I'm such a pumpkin right now. But anyways, so I'm walking along and like, doesn't the frigging sky just turn black?



Tyson

Opens up so it just whack and you hear like, the rolling thunder in the distance. And I was like, Oh, shit. So like, we start like, picking up the pace a little bit and like, we get to the community center and I'm like, phew, if we made it. Okay, so I can, like, jump in here, wait out the rain, upload my video.



Tyson

Isn't the power off in the community center. So not only is there no Wi-Fi in the community center because power's out, but because all the doors are like like their security system is based on the power. I can't even get in to the community center. So now I'm like, okay, I'm about like two and a half kilometers from home, like, do I run for it or do I just like, wait it out?



Tyson

Like underneath, like an awning or something? Yeah. Anyways, so I was able to wait it out and it was like me and like three that are like skater kids because they were using the skate park at the community center and we're just, like, waiting. And I felt like my baby and like, the thunder is like really a and like, we get hefty storms where I am like, really bad.



Tyson

Like, they're called like Derechos or something. They come in just like out of nowhere, and it's like, anyways, so I just like, wait it out. And it turned out okay. But with that, I kid you not. It had to have been maybe the next day. Okay, this is so weird. So I had this, like, debacle with the internet the next day for the first time since I've lived in this house for two years, the internet guy is going door to door, knocks on my door.



Tyson

He's like, Hey, I can set you up for like faster internet. And I'm like, How convenient. Like, it's like a message from the gods, honestly. So here I am.



Alexa

I've been praying to these guys, like.



Tyson

Answered everybody's prayers. So here I am with hopefully faster Internet.



Alexa

I'll sing. God, you have to pray.



Tyson

We'll see how good.



Alexa

My God, I did. I made my God for a year for you. So I'm glad that you've turned me into a faithful woman. Yeah, I'm so happy to hear that my whole team will be fucking ecstatic. The team will be stoked. Well, congratulations on your faster wife. I your big girl. You got big girl wife.



Tyson

Yeah.



Alexa

Very proud of you. Very proud of you. Um, incredible. Well, speaking of being a big girl, let me read a scene here, and then we'll get cracking on today's topic. Today's episode is brought to you by our community. The people of society join Tyson, myself, a bunch of our guests and a lot of our listeners in the Pop Community Forum.



Alexa

Download Awesome Resources and templates shared by peers get access to cool free resources like Tyson's Art of Compensation Course available to all members at no extra charge. Usually code people problems that people have said e-commerce you get 20% off your membership today again usually call people problems all caps all one word at people of society dot com. All right Tyson today we are going to talk to you and me assistant Alexa on Tyson episode our baby.


Alexa

And we're just going to talk about one of the sort of maybe the stereotypes or caricatures of the professional which is that people are wallflowers and we're going to debate this we're going to talk about this topic. But this comes from a couple of things. One, just having worked in and around the industry for many, many years, it is sort of a known persona that H.R. people are not And again, we're generalizing.



Alexa

I want to call out that we are wildly generalizing. We're going to use a lot of blanket, unfair blanket statements to talk about this. So relax, we're aware but, you know, not known to be risk takers, not known to be the first one to speak up and say, hey, I disagree.



Tyson

And we saw that in our misconceptions. Episode two We.



Alexa

Did.



Tyson

We did. We did exceptions along those lines.



Alexa

Right? So we're sort of double clicking on this one a little bit. And so I think I'd like to start the conversation with just a little bit about maybe let's regurgitate the misconception if you think it is a misconception. And let's talk a little bit about this sort of known persona, because obviously the irony here is that you're in a jar and you're not a wallflower.



Tyson

So and most of our guests have not been they're not. Most likely.



Alexa

Yeah. Most of the people we have on this podcast are not wallflowers. A few we've had to poke, but for the most part, they were not guests on this podcast right Yeah, we tend to we tend to gravitate towards the louder bunch, but yeah. Curious what you think of this when I say wallflowers in nature. What do you think?


Tyson

Well, I think that there's just definitely been this again, whether it's the misconception or not, like the misconception that, like, H.R. is really just there to sort of like do what they're told, make the business. Like, they listen to what the business has to say and they kind of just like do it without like being a yes man sort of thing.



Tyson

Not ever like questioning, pushing back, providing other options, opportunities for things that they could do differently. So there's like definitely this And again, like, is it a misconception? Maybe yes, maybe no. There's also this huge challenge in H.R. that so many of us have imposter syndrome. And I've talked about this recently on on our show, but there's this sort of this opposing thing where it's like people just feel like we're there to be walked over.


Tyson

We're feeling a sense of imposter syndrome, and it's kind of like the perfect storm for us just to sort of like do what we're like, do what we're told to do and not ever sort of laird foot down or put our foot down, that sort of thing. So it's kind of this, like, double thing. And I think I think oftentimes the reason is and at least for me and I'll speak for my own personal experience, any time that I've felt imposter syndrome, it's because I've just been there sort of maybe an entry level or very new to my career.



Tyson

And here I am advising vice presidents, directors, senior managers. So I'm never really advising people that are at my level or working with people. My level oftentimes is thrown in with managers. And like if they're pushing back on something, it would be to a manager, a director level. So maybe that's where my imposter syndrome has always come from.



Tyson

I'm like, who am I to be advising these particular individuals? But so yeah, so I think that there definitely is some truth to this, to this misconception because a lot of H.R. folks just don't they don't speak up. And I know in my experience, a lot of what we talk about with like among H.R. is like how do we not be wallflowers and how do we learn to push back and that sort of thing.



Tyson

So it's obviously there's obviously some truth to it.



Alexa

And some people at the time, it's like people are always asking questions about like how I raised this thing. And it's like, well, let's talk about how.



Tyson

You rate how do I build credibility, how I build like confidence. Yeah, none of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.



Alexa

Well, it's interesting. So I think if I was to step back for a quick second look at this from the business side of things is like, I always wonder like, is this this is this a symptom or is this like is this a symptom of just the fact? Like the conversation we always have, which is like H.R. has an administrative history.



Alexa

It has a clerical history and a lot of what I think the reason we're here and we get fired up about this stuff is like we think there is actually a bifurcated side of this, which is like the strategy and the the sort of like more people dynamic team optimization, human optimization piece of this and that. Those two things, all depending on the organization, you just get lumped under H.R., right?



Alexa

So, so, so sometimes I think the issue is like the H.R. function or the, the weight in the organization has shifted and maybe the people in that position or that group have not necessarily shifted with the time's right. So I'm speaking of like old school, very administrative very bureaucratic, quote unquote departments. And they very much still exist. I think they are slowly being phased out as larger organizations realize that operations like true operations and clerical work in administration can largely be farmed out to you or outsourced, and that the people function is actually different and needs to be optimized differently but it definitely still happens.



Alexa

And so part of me wonder is, is this like a chicken or the egg? Right? Like, is this the persona of a lot of or a known persona H.R. people? Because there's just been so many people in these more administrative, clerical roles where they didn't need to be thought provoking and sort of, you know, a little more than I on the, you know, the Myers-Briggs and and all these things.



Alexa

Or is it that, like, this kind of work just attracts maybe people who are more willing to sit back? Because to your point, they're not in the steering wheel. They're always the passenger. When you're working with a manager or executive team or whatever. Right. You're not on the front lines. You're you're an internal advisor. Yeah. So I just I it for me, it's hard to tell.



Alexa

I will say, having done this podcast for a year with you and having worked with sort of thousands of people that I would consider to be sort of quote unquote new age or new guard or all of our pop community members, all of that I don't think this persona is as baked and as long for this world as it used to be.



Alexa

Mm hmm. You know, I'm talking to a perfect example of it right now. I think the profession is starting to change and attract more people. A lot of our guests, we're example that have a lot more of the like I don't know, I'm coming to this from like I'm going to tell you the things that you need to hear that are uncomfortable.



Alexa

We need to have a different kind of conversation here. But I don't know, maybe that's recency bias.



Tyson

Yeah. And I definitely think that you and I do think like I think that as a profession, like, not only are the people in H.R. becoming a lot more like skilled and savvy and it's attracting a lot more people who are like more interested in the strategy side of things. And less of the administrative. But also, I think there's such a better understanding from the business of what H.R. can do so that.



Alexa

I think we have a place to go. But I think the business community is starting to kind of shake their head up and go, Wait a minute.



Tyson

Yeah, exactly. And and there are some managers that really respect the function and are like, Holy crap, like, I am only as good as like my age, H.R. like, you know, that kind of thing. But then there's also the managers that there's still so many managers that don't understand that. So it's, Oh, hey, Tyson, can you submit this form for me?



Tyson

And it's like, no, it's not going to do it, right? So it's like that then again. But then I might be like, as the H.R. person, I, you know what? Like, might as well. It's easier just for me to submit his performance forms than for me to have to explain it. And then there I am just to push over.



Tyson

And then that's like the H.R. Wallflower misconception is just like, you know. Yeah, and further. But I think, I think we're so I'll, I'll share the sort of current events or recent events that led, I think, to this conversation. So I think it'll be really good for, for the conversation here. So I think most people at this point know about the situation in Canada where Lisa LaFlamme was fired shortly after.



Tyson

She's a news anchor that has had a very long career with the media. I was, you know, very sort like everyone respected her, etc. I guess what happened was there was a conversation among managers where someone said a comment, something like who who allowed her to let her hair go gray? And then shortly after she was fired for really a business decision was the reasoning right?



Tyson

As these conversations always said, it was a business decision. So that was one thing that happened. And then another individual, her name was Ashley. No, sorry, Danielle. Graham. She came up on Twitter and said that she was also fired. And the timing of her termination was such that she submitted a formal complaint about harassment to H.R.. They had a meeting scheduled, let's say, March 11th, formal complaints submitted to H.R., a meeting with H.R. about that complaint on March 11th.



Tyson

She was called in and fired on March 10th because of a business decision. And then there was another woman, Jennifer Valentine. Again, similar circumstances. I don't have all the details on this one, but again, a situation where there was like, you know, potential harassment investigations, that sort of thing, like and it just was fired for kind of like no reason.



Tyson

So at what point does someone in H.R. need to take responsibility? And I get it. I get that we are simply advisors. They teach us that in college. They literally teach us in college that we are there to advise the business. We do not make decisions. There's a name for it. It's on the exam. I got that question wrong.



Tyson

I can still remember. I don't get many questions.



Alexa

I'm glad you got that question right.


Tyson

I don't get a lot of test questions wrong. I'm very nerdy, but I got this question wrong in college, and but they teach us this, that we're simply advisors. But at what point did someone not say, Hey, what the hell? I have a million.



Alexa

People who have an open investigation.



Tyson

I have a meeting with this individual on Thursday. Let's not fire them on Wednesday.



Alexa

Well, yeah. Okay. So and I don't want to go down this rabbit hole it could into if I were to play the, like, complete benefit of the doubt hat. If I put that on for a second, I would be like this. Just some speaking of being clerical, some fucking clerical error where somebody decided to fire this person and no one had the ability to be like, do you know they have an investigation?



Tyson

No. Never, ever, ever. In the history of my career, the Bell Media, this is literally this is my new fast Internet Oh, okay. This is.



Alexa

Deniability. Maybe they can play that card.



Tyson

This is like this is not mom and pop, right? Like, this is a huge company with huge that's.



Alexa

What I'm saying. But that's why I'm saying.



Tyson

Maybe they're.



Alexa

So big that it's such a mess. But three times is is no longer.



Tyson

And it's just it's so like are you serious? Like, any time that anyone gets fired, just tell people, like, if anyone's wondering if someone's going to be fired. It's not just like okay, let's just fire them tomorrow. There is file reviews. Yeah. There are so much conversations. Have they been on a short term disability leave lately? Are they suffering or do they have any do they have any other investigations?



Tyson

Is there anything else I should be thinking about now? Like you said, this could be this could be a company that's so big that investigations are getting handled over here and the termination is getting handled over here. Yeah, sure. Yes. But I I'm going to say it now. I think that the person who was responsible and working with the manager for this termination has the due diligence that they have to do and somebody fucked up.



Tyson

Yeah. Like it's just it's not. And I do feel as though H.R. people need to start holding the line because then what happens? This was posted on Twitter, this timeline, again, specifically about the Graham situation where she was fired like the day before her investigation conversation. And somebody puts on Twitter they're like, never talk to H.R., don't trust H.R. and then all the H.R. hate begins.



Tyson

Yeah. And it's like I actually would also hate on that H.R. individual because they fucked up and they weren't doing their job. I'm going to be honest. I'm sorry. I like Dave. Someone's got to hold the line.



Alexa

So I'm going to hold the line. I think it's very important, especially as people who are calling for change in an industry that we examine internally, you know, we can just be haters. Like we got to be we got to look at this were the way things are done around here now. Totally not just, you know, bitch and talk about the future, but I yeah.



Alexa

So look I was playing devil's advocate there. I think it is entirely possible that there is an investigation team that is over here and you know, but but to your point, I think it is very, very unlikely that the people who were somehow involved in or around knowing about that complaint being filed were not also the people involved in the case.



Alexa

There's no chance that they are completely ignorant of that. They did. Yeah. Yeah.



Tyson

No. And and and so look, sometimes in H.R. because there's sticky situations when we're firing people, what do we do? Again, we work for Bell Media. What do we do when there's a sticky situation you call your legal team.



Alexa

Right?



Tyson

Why was that not like. Oh, and again, maybe it was done. Maybe it was. Maybe they're extremely.



Alexa

Maybe maybe they got bad legal advice. Truthfully, maybe they got advice that was like, yeah, the best thing you can do is let this person go for for applause. If you can if you can articulate a plausible business case that you've got in right at prior to this complaint, that's probably your safest bet. Get them the fuck out of here before this goes through.



Alexa

And it's possible that was the advice they got.



Tyson

But so here's the thing. We're also talking about Canada here, and I think Ontario. So I have once in my career done a termination where we were investing sort of at the same time, and there was a termination. But you again have to make sure that that person understands that the investigation is going to continue. And the reasoning behind this, it was a bigger layoff.



Tyson

It was a business thing situation that happened. Like we were letting go, like all sorts of people.



Alexa

There got a lot of reason.



Tyson

But it was like we are we have a shortage of work. Like we have to we have to let some people go. There was like a whole bunch of people anyways. So then you have to do the due diligence of continuing that investigation. And even after they're an employee and that person knows like that person, like they're involved in that.



Tyson

They have to know like they would know about that. So she wouldn't be on Twitter posting how horrible it would be. Handled if that was the case, right?



Alexa

Yeah, yeah, I think so. Let's go back to the crux of this episode, which is why, why did no one speak up? And I think again, if I come at this from sort of the institutional side of it, I get worried that there is in some way a screening for in in sort of big design of H.R. teams.



Alexa

One of the reasons why I wax so hard about like just redesigning the whole thing and possibly even rebranding it so that we get my I just had to get one in there. Uh, is that, you know, it's very possible that I've seen it many, many times. I've seen it with executives in general, not just H.R. teams where the team is structured around leadership that just doesn't want that function to have a voice.



Alexa

They just didn't hire someone that was going to talk back. They didn't hire someone that was going to say I'm going to put my foot down on this one. We should be hiring people with open investigations before their investigations at the start of our, you know, at least you concluded with the interview. Mm hmm. So I wonder if in some ways are these just organizations who have sort of conveniently organized their teams to not be in the way or are there?



Alexa

And it's probably both and. Right, of course, it usually is. But or these situations where someone and and again, it's hard. So I want to talk about it where someone really should have or could have put their foot down and didn't because of personal interest. Right. And that is a really hard place to be. And let's be very clear about H.R. and probably legal are the only two functions I can think of where if you are to stand up like this in a way that is I don't want to call it righteous cause probably not righteous, probably mostly out of legal obviousness.



Alexa

Yeah. You're it's very it's very likely that your job is.



Tyson

Like fear of retaliation.



Alexa

Exactly. Well, just like we can't have a person who is going to stand up and tell us we can't fire the people we want to fire. They got to go. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, look, everyone fears for their job. Like, we have to remember that in all of these conversations about work, is like, no one is trying to get fired.



Alexa

Everyone trying to be their family ever trying to keep a roof over their head, um, you know, their hierarchy and all that jazz.



Tyson

But I think the thing is, so I've just sort of like, rhymed off, like as I was sharing the example, like alternatives. Right? So you're right. You never want to be the person that every time you go to them. It's just like, now we can't do that now. That's how we end up like the police. Right? But this is a situation where we say, look, this is this is what we've got going on right now.



Tyson

And you probably wouldn't even disclose all of the details, like you can't disclose the details of the investigation to the managers. Well, there's like a respect to like some confidentiality that goes with that process. Yeah. But it's like, look, we have to finish this first or this is like the way that we can finish this in a way.



Tyson

Like, you know, if we have to fire them today, this is how we're going to continue this process over here, etc., etc. Like there are so many ways. It's kind of like a not right now. But like we'll figure it out together. And that, I think is the key to being a successful partner is that and that's what's going to elevate us to the next level is like, look, we've got all these things to consider.



Tyson

Let's do the right thing because now what's happening, everybody's like.



Alexa

Yeah.



Tyson

Like this is like a whole thing. Like, I know with the Lisa LaFlamme situation, like people of Canada are completely in uproar and there's like petitions to, like, reinstate her and like, yeah, you're mean, like, people are pissed. Yeah, the consumer is pissed. The customer is pissed.



Alexa

Yeah. And so part of me, again, I don't, I don't know if this is a personality thing. And again, I will say I've worked with thousands of people in my career at this point. A lot of them are wallflowers. They are they're not risk takers. They're there.



Tyson

I work in H.R., I know they're not.



Alexa

Even going to buy a fucking software unless someone else in their same industry with the same number of employees who looks just like their company has bought a software. Like, it's, it's, it's it's crazy. I just don't operate that way. So I struggle to, to. Mm. In some ways. But, but I, but at the same time, I get it because I'm, you know, you're, you're between a rock and a hard place, literally.



Alexa

Like, that's literally where you exist between a rock and a hard place sometimes. And so I just wonder in these instances, like, are so for example, one of the things I, this is one of the things you do all the time when you're starting businesses, launching businesses, whatever, trying to grow businesses, trying to hold businesses, whatever is you're constantly scenario planning.



Alexa

So you're constantly saying what's the best middle and worst case scenario based on the decision I'm about to make and you run that through a couple of your decisions right so you're like, okay, well, if it were a couple of things that are quality likely outcomes, right? So you're like, if a happens, here's the best middle and worst case scenario happens is the best middle and worst case scenario.



Alexa

Right? And I look at a situation like this thing with, with Bell Media and I'm like, where the fuck was the chart that said, when we fire this woman prior to her investigation being concluded that the best case scenario was like, we get out of this Scott fucking gray, there's no chance that was a reality. And it's these decisions that get made that to your point, you're like, where was someone in that meeting being like, This is a terrible fucking idea.



Alexa

But then I look at it, I'm like, Okay, let's presume there was someone in that meeting that was like, This is a bad fucking idea. Have we not given them as a profession, as a, as a, as a, as a academic fucking exercise this skill set to walk into that meeting and go, there's not a single way I can articulate this decision as not being a bad idea.



Alexa

Right.



Tyson

Or I also wonder.



Alexa

All roads lead to bad idea.



Tyson

Are we in so much shit as a profession that the person who raised their hand and was like, Don't do it because this is what's going to happen is so disrespected, not listened to, not respected enough to listen to their opinion, right? That the managers were like.



Alexa

I worry about that for sure.



Tyson

We're going to go and do it anyways and you're going to make it happen.



Alexa

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I totally agree about that.



Tyson

So and I have compassion. I have compassion to that.



Alexa

I do. I have I one. That's where that's where it's like the institution hire this kind of person or is this person just somehow they've wound up contextual being the person that no one respects. And the latter one, I think, is the one we have control over the former one where they're hiring for a certain kind of person, just like you said, missive to the C-suite is not something we can control.


Alexa

Right? So for our listeners who want some fucking practical implications and like what? Okay, but what the fuck can we do about it exercising So what happens after the latter situation where the function or your function personally or the role of someone on your team, maybe someone you work for has become one where it lacks respect and it lacks clout?



Alexa

How did we get there? I think the first question is like, is this team reputationally known for, for example, always being the whistleblower such that when the whistle gets blown, everybody's like, Yeah, I role we're moving on. Is this team has the reputation of this team and the strategy, strategic function of this team become one such that people just look at us to be the doormat when we have to make hard decisions like you have to look at the function critically from like a how does it fit within the organizational team.



Alexa

And if you're getting the sense that even if you're not the head of H.R., even if you're just on the team or in one of the sub functions, depending on how big the team is, if you're getting the sense that the function is ineffective because that cloud has been lost or that reputation has been damaged, whether or not you were there for why that happened or not, but reputationally that those are the kinds of teams people need to stop working on.



Alexa

Yeah, because those are the teams that need to be burnt to the ground and rebuilt because this is the shift that happens is you just render the entire team useless. Nobody respects their opinion or they don't speak up because they feel like they're going to get chewed out. And then you just don't have an effective, healthy sort of governing.



Tyson

So your advice, which is for you to quit?



Alexa

No, no, I think that yeah, that's great advice to everyone's like, Fuck off, I can't quit my job. No, no.



Tyson

But having an exit strategy.



Alexa

Always call, always your exits.



Tyson

Always know your exit, always your exits.



Alexa

We've talked about this. I think everyone is like, look, you know, you do enough crazy sports and shit. People will tell you, like always know your exit strategy, right? Like you're on a motorcycle. Where are you going to dip in some car cuts? You operate, you're always supposed to see the exits. Where are you going to go? I think that's just good life advice.



Alexa

But yeah, more importantly, I think in this is one be very discerning of that when you are joining a company. Hey, when was the last time that this going with this team stepped in on a strategic decision and was taken seriously or hey, what was the last time? You can change the course of something this business did. That's really important.



Alexa

Should ask and then three I think is like start to have those conversations with your team. Hey, guys, I think I have I'm a little worried like internal PR for the H.R. team. I'm the new I'm the new PR chick on the team. Like I'm a little worried that when the only way that we present feedback to management or when the only thing that we speak up about is something negative or is something like what's color inside the lines?


Alexa

Or is something that's not one of these more favorable things that we need to manage our reputation, and we need to be seen internally as someone who adds value strategically as well as someone when we speak up and say, no, people go, maybe we should rethink this. Right? Right. Yeah, I think teams have to do it for themselves.



Alexa

If there's some onus on on the active practitioner.



Tyson

You do. And I really think that like the most important thing you can do in H.R. and again, like I'm I'm kind of focusing now on like a business partner role that's like manager facing is to build trust. Like if you have one job, it's to build trust and credibility with the managers, your clients, so to speak, or like the managers that you support.



Tyson

Like if you don't have that trust like what do you, what are you doing there other than the administrative work, right? Because the good stuff, the good work that we want to be a part of the times where we can say to a manager Are you fucking off your rocker? Like, there's no way you're going to do that.



Tyson

You're not doing that. Like, and I've had conversations like that. I can, I can vouch that there are people that can have conversations like that. But you can say, like, speak openly, speak candidly. They can come to you and be like, Hey, I have this crazy idea. Let's talk about it. You can't do that until you have built credibility and you've built trust with those people on a personal level.



Tyson

They know that you know what you're talking about. Like, you know, it's not just about you. Every time you have a one on one with them being like, you have to do your performance reviews. You have to make sure your team's completing your engagement surveys. You know, your numbers are here. Like you're you've only had 75% of people fill out their performance review like that.



Tyson

We don't want to be talking about that all the time. So with that, like, that's where we start to lose credibility because every time we're reaching out to them, it's like what the to do.



Alexa

Yeah.



Tyson

Well, and you're not actually asking about like figuring out what you can do to help them.



Alexa

You know? Yeah. I mean, look, I think people forget that all the time, right? Mm hmm. If it happens in business all the time, people are worried about an extra dollar on a contract or this. It's like, let's just focus on value for the client. Like, let's just focus on that's the only reason we make money is to build value for other people.



Alexa

Right? Stop. That's what that's what this is.



Tyson

Yeah. And like, we're not they're not there to help you finish your stuff, right? You are there to help them or their business. Yes.



Alexa

To make their team better.



Tyson

Yeah. It's not about checking our boxes. It's about doing the H.R. stuff to make their team better.



Alexa

I will say on the other side of this and I don't want to belabor this, but like you also can't be you also can't be the martyr. Right? Like, that's also not an effective internal reputation if you're all and look, I know this comes from a good place and I know so many people that have come to this profession recently and are like this, which is like every single conversation is like, but we need to do more for our people, but we need to do more for our people.



Alexa

And I'd say 99% of cases, that's totally, totally true. But you can't constantly be going to management and saying, yes, but I need to do more. Yes, but we need more. Yes, but we are not doing good enough. Or, Oh, employees need more employees more. Because then when you speak up and say, Hey, I'm going to put my foot down on this, like this is really not okay for us to be doing.



Alexa

You have lost reputational points because you're all you're just the chick who's like flagrantly asking for more all the time because you want it. You want to do better for your employees. And I love that attitude. I think that's the right attitude to have. I think a balanced attitude is I'm trying to do the best for our population while doing what we need to do for the business.



Alexa

That's the goal. But you can't be the martyr either. You can't be the person that's constantly squawking against management and then also be the person that's like, okay, management, are you to shut up for a second and listen to me because I have something serious to say? No, like you can't you can't be the, you know, the H.R. person I don't know what Wolf would be in this example, but, you know.



Tyson

The H.R. person that cried for engagement.



Alexa

Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I.



Tyson

Know it's a.



Alexa

It's a double edged sword, but I would think if people took one thing out of this conversation, I would hope that it is it is worth a critical eye about what your internal reputation is and generally maybe a start to that. We do this sometimes in my team meetings where we'll just start the meeting and say like the only one, if I were you at, right?



Alexa

Like five is like having the best day of your life. And one is like, I struggle to get out of bed this morning. Like, where are you at? Right. Maybe where is your team at in terms of comfort level, pushing back to people that are not just the internal team. Yeah, right. So if you know, hey, I'm working with a team that is like us like a one on the speak up about a five scale and I'm expecting these guys to give managers tough feedback or we're trying to implement change like there's lots of implications if people are not comfortable pushing back or conflict or just confident communicating harder things.



Alexa

Um, you got to know that you're working with that, right? That's, that's a real weakness to uncover. And arguably I think, one, you can do some good training and development around and all that jazz. So yeah, I would, I would say if I was to give people one take away, it's like, you know, obviously hiring different personality type school.



Alexa

Great. You can do that when you can hire but not have retiring all the time. Yeah, I think, yeah. People, people need to be a little bit more critical about like are we actually a team that is willing to do this if we have to?



Tyson

Yeah. And I just like hope that like, I don't know, I personally feel responsibility for a lot of these things, and I hope that more H.R. people do, even though, like, we started this conversation with look like we're not necessarily decision makers. And I totally get that. But we also are like there to protect people, protect the companies and like make sure things get done in a certain way.



Alexa

About how you act in a situation. So right now, these these people, you're not you're not off the hook.



Tyson

So speak the fuck up the decision.



Alexa

Exactly. If you were in the room and didn't speak the fuck up, you are complicit. Um, and again, I realize in some situations literally your job might be on the line and not everyone is willing to make it. It's like not, not everything is so bad that the company's doing. It's worth putting your job on the line totally.



Alexa

But you make two or three of those calls. You probably need to start thinking about why you're at that company.



Tyson

Right? And you're undoing all the hard work that Alexa and I have been.



Alexa

Yeah, exactly. Fuck you for making it harder for us.



Tyson

You're bringing down the.



Alexa

Entire episode oh, god damn it.



Tyson

Now I have compassion for everybody that works in it.



Alexa

You tell us and tell us and tell us. I'm sure there's more hard scenarios than we can even think of in this this quick episode. But, like, yeah. Tell us what you've struggled with. Tell us about a time to talk up. Yeah, time. You didn't speak up. Like, we want to hear about this stuff because it's real and this stuff matters, I think for the whole profession and also for people personally, like this stuff is important.



Tyson

Yeah. I think specifically with this episode, I would love people to send us their thoughts on what we've talked about because this is this has been pretty this has been like a pretty touchy subject, I think. So I would love to hear your thoughts on this one. Yeah.



Alexa

And we still love you, even if you're wallflowers.



Tyson

I love you all equally.



Alexa

Yes. Love you all equally. You know, love to be loud just like us.


Alexa

Oh, all right, Tyson, that's a wrap. Don't forget to follow us at people problems pod at each hour shook and at the influencer spelled with an R and obviously most excitingly announcing the launch of our People Problems hotline, you can call in and leave us a voicemail with your people problem, your responses, your questions, your thoughts, comments. Don't be a jerk.



Alexa

We'll give you our tips and tricks and we can commiserate and find the humor with you calling it three ten, five, six, four, six, four, 62. Feel free to remain anonymous or let us know who you are again. Call the New People Problems Hotline at three ten, five, six, four, 6462.



Tyson

Wait a minute. Before you leave, take some time to leave us a five star rating. We'd really love your feedback. Thanks.



Alexa

This episode was executive produced by me, Alexa Buzz, you heard her music was also done by the wonderful elements of your harmonies. You can find more information about us and future episodes at people problems POPCOM or follow us at People Problems Part on all things social. Thanks.



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