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075 - Life Admin (aka. The 4-Day Work Week)

Hustle culture is breaking down quick. The rise of the 4-day workweek experiment is upon us, and for good reason…it might actually work. The duo talks with the feisty and beloved Ryan Mae McAvoy about her team's transition to the 4DWW, her lessons learned, and her extreme love of cats. Take the day, give 'er a listen!






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Follow the podcast on Linkedin, Instagram, and TikTok at @peopleproblemspod

Follow the hosts:

Alexa Baggio on Instagram, Tiktok, and LinkedIn

Tyson Mackenzie on Instagram at @hr.shook


Ryan- Mae McAvoy on LinkedIn

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You can see the book Alexa references here: Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less



Alexa

What's up, Tyson?


Tyson

Not too much. I feel like I.


Alexa

Know how we're doing.


Tyson

I feel like I need to give an update because I think.


Alexa

You owe the peeps an update.


Tyson

Yeah, like, so.


Alexa

Give it to us. Last time I want all the updates.


Tyson

I'm talking about, you know, going to be in real life with people. And I was so excited for my girls. My first business trip since Mat leave and everything, and like, holy shit, man. Two days in person.


Alexa

Real people are exhausted people.


Tyson

I am so done. Like I my social beta is done until. Until next year. We're done.


Alexa

We're done. We're not that far away from next year, luckily.


Tyson

But no, I know. Is it too early? Is it too early? I don't know. But, like, honestly, I guess I could not believe, like, how physically exhausted I was after being on, like, you know, work capacity for for two days shoulder and like, it's like, not enough that we have to spend all day together. But then there's like the drinks and then the dinners.


Tyson

We organized events and unlike people, did you not get enough of each other? Like, it's a lot. It is a lot. I just want to go back to my hotel. This is real by myself and like, pump my boots and just like go to sleep and, like, be done with it. Like, that is like, all I wanted. But yeah, anyways, yes, your girls still dressing, so let's just No judgment.


Alexa

Just be free zone. Here are the People Problems podcast. Well, I'm glad you got your first one under your belt. I'm glad you survived it. Yes. Your colleagues are thankful that you survived it.


Tyson

Yes, I am. I hope you survived.


Alexa

So good. Good. And the family is still in one piece. We are still still married. Still.


Tyson

The house is still up. Yes.


Alexa

Exactly. All right. Cool. Well, that's helpful. That's good to know. Yeah. I mean, you've basically mentally got like two weeks before the holidays. So it's fine. I know. I can't wait. Yeah, I know. It's it. Tis the season. Speaking of the season, it is time to let the people know that we have some hotline bling going on these days.


Alexa

So we are announcing the launch of our People Problems Hotline. You can call in and leave us a note with your people problems, story responses or feedback at three ten 5646462. You'll stay anonymous if you want to or not, but you can call in with your crazy stories and your best questions for us here at the People Problems Hotline three ten, five, six, four, six, four, 62.


Alexa

All right, Tyson, we've got a wonderful guest today. I'm very excited for this topic. This is a bit of a continuation of last week's episode. We were talking sort of our unadulterated thoughts on holiday times and breaks. But without further ado, I will introduce Ryan May. Ryan is the director of People Office at Blackthorn IO and considers herself a nontraditional people person.


Alexa

She has worked in the people's space from start ups to ski areas, and she uses humor to lighten the mood, which everyone will be keenly aware of shortly and reminds folks that she is not, quote, regular or she is cool. H are right there for you, tyson. And when she's not working on culture benefits and caring for her team, she lives her best old lady life knitting, reading, wine tasting and hanging with her cats.


Alexa

Biggest cat person I've ever met. She also has an unhealthy amount of Christmas trees, causing her December electric bill to be the stuff of nightmares. Ryan may bank may be the best bio we've ever read here at people problems. And you are definitely the biggest cat person I've ever met. So now I'm outnumbered by cat people as a representative dog person here.


Alexa

Welcome to you.


Ryan-Mae

And I tried to order I ordered some of Tyson's merch because he's got the cool H.R. shirt and I was like, oh, my gosh, I saw that my bio and it like, it just didn't. I don't have my shit together enough to like time merch deliveries. For, like, commitment.


Alexa

Well, tell us a little bit about your foray into people Ryan made for the people, for the peeps, for the kids. It's time for the peeps. Tell us a little bit.


Ryan-Mae

About.


Alexa

Into the space and then we'll get to the topic.


Ryan-Mae

Kind of started as an accident. I got a business degree because I actually feel like the best cop out when you're like, I don't really know what I want to do. I actually went to the ski area and it was kind of one of the things where like ski areas are seasonal and they're like, But you have all this education.


Ryan-Mae

Do you like one work in a job? I was like, totally. Like that's I don't know what that means, like and I still joke to this day, it's the greatest gig I ever had. So we did that for a couple of seasons and then I was like, Oh yeah, I'm moving to Silicon Valley and get my big girl job coach.


Ryan-Mae

It happened, so it was really cool. I was like, The world is my oyster. Like, the world shut down. So I got a job and it was like, You're the people person. Oh, by the way, we actually have to be in person. We've been deemed essential. So if you could just like, figure out what that looks like. Like, to this day, leaving my previous company was the hardest thing.


Tyson

So we enjoying we can we talk about that like what you mentioned, like you just like weren't liking the situation, like what was going on there? Yeah.


Alexa

What happened? What changed?


Ryan-Mae

It was I feel like it was the classic H.R., like, oh, you're the culture carrier. Okay, well, when anyone from leadership says something totally toxic, I can't fix that.


Alexa

Were you a team of one?


Ryan-Mae

I was a team of one.


Tyson

The problem is, is that people and this is what I'm learning is that people think that not so much that H.R. like made the decision, but that H.R. has the power to influence the decision and change the decision. I get that all the time. It's like, yeah, like, I know that we're not supposed to do X, but like, can I like can you just act like can you just, like, can find some way to certain.


Ryan-Mae

Like, steps to do it.


Tyson

Circumvent.


Alexa

The authority you don't have?


Tyson

It's it's as if like, they think is the all powerful and that we get to like go and be like, oh, you know what? Just this once.


Ryan-Mae

And I'll never forget and this I don't want to expose, but I don't want to expose that kind of people. But like we have the conversation is like, no, I'm leaving. And he's like, oh, well you should go like run this by your husband. And like, I look forward to our continued employment. And I was like, I'm out.


Ryan-Mae

Like, I'm a fish.


Alexa

You have to run.


Ryan-Mae

Strong.


Alexa

By your husband.


Ryan-Mae

Yeah. And so I like and I had been trying and even true H.R. person, I was like, this is gonna be coachable moment because I'm leaving and I like that. And I wrote my email and I was like, I'm leaving. And I was like, the feedback on my leaving is when you said this, I know the intention was like, You're part of our family.


Ryan-Mae

Like, you've been around us. All I heard was, your husband loves me more than you. So but my little girl and now I'm officially done, and he's like, Well, that's not what I meant. I'm like, I know that's not what you meant, but this is the culmination of all of our problems. You say things and you only let them land how you feel them.


Ryan-Mae

You're not ever going to look at it through the worst case scenario. And so then I just.


Alexa

It's just to be fair for all the people that listen to this like a major fucking take away, like before shit gets said out loud outside of a small room of executives or otherwise, like, run that shit through the worst case scenario lens, like the sensitivity lens, the other people lens, the spouses lens, like run that shit through your, like, meter of all the different people that this could land on.


Alexa

And if it then if it checks the boxes, say that shit out loud.


Ryan-Mae

But to me.


Tyson

We wouldn't have a job.


Ryan-Mae

Right? If people.


Tyson

Thought about when they said.


Alexa

No.


Ryan-Mae

So we have Blackthorne leadership and we I'm constantly amazed. Like we come in our benefits and stuff. It had been run by like it was start up there were 15 people like we were just piecemeal thing. And I was able to say like what if we did this? And it was like, Yeah, okay. And I was like, wait, wait.


Ryan-Mae

But I have like a whole like presentation and my torch ready and I'm like, going to die on this hill. And you're just like, Yeah, she's got. And I'm like.


Alexa

Isn't it fucking refreshing?


Tyson

That's like the best thing when you have, like, you're so ready to, like, just, like, fight to the death. And then they're like, Yeah, sure. And you're like, What? Like.


Ryan-Mae

And so we're like, learning each other, and all of us are kind of working. And then out of nowhere, so I was like, Hey, I've been reading about 40 work week, and I was like, Oh, I wish. Okay.


Alexa

That would.


Ryan-Mae

Be great. And then it became a thing.


Tyson

Let's talk about it.


Alexa

Let's talk. I want to talk about why. I want to talk about pros. I want to talk about cons, I want to talk about considerations.


Ryan-Mae

So ready to.


Alexa

Follow along with me here? Why did you start having this conversation? Like, he read something about it, whatever. But what were like the considerations and the reasons that this conversation is started to happen?


Ryan-Mae

I think it was a three prong kind of reason that.


00:09:02:12 - 00:09:04:16

Alexa

It's just really quickly, how many employees are you guys?


Ryan-Mae

Right now? We're at 100 and between 120. 130.


Alexa

Okay. And you're fully remote.


Ryan-Mae

We're fully remote. We're in 14 countries. We're in the U.S. world, in 29 states where we're everywhere. We're in almost every time zone. That's like my goal is to get one in every time zone on the planet. Like, yes. But so when I started, we were 32 and they were doing summer Fridays every other Friday, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is great.


Ryan-Mae

And then it was like a discussion. Do we just keep every other Fridays And the notice from those just from that was like a lot of people. If I go to the DMV, I mean, dude, on that Friday, I'm going to just kind to like live my life on that Friday. Of, like, the stuff nobody wants to do but you need to do and then you don't feel bad about missing work.


Ryan-Mae

So, like, okay, cool. I believe our C CEO had read an article and there was a lot of stuff coming out about some of the bigger players trying, trying this or being against it or it's not going to work. I kind of thought it was a joke when he suggested that. It was like, okay, I was going to give everyone every Friday off and then leadership started buying it on.


Ryan-Mae

It was like, Yeah, what would that look like? How would that work? Can you do some research on me? So we did a bunch of research, and for us, we the one thing I would say that if you're prepared to do this, we called the first quarter a beta we told everybody, pause.


Alexa

Before you go there, I want to know what the research told you. I want to know what you found out about four day work.


Ryan-Mae

There's not enough research. There's not enough good research. And I think I found like it it was a college I don't want to cite the wrong college. There was a college that did a study on it. Most of the studies were in Europe and which is great. But you've traveled and like outside of the U.S. cultures as such a.


Alexa

Little bit.


Ryan-Mae

Like it's just things are more relaxed there's there's longer lines.


Alexa

Stations are different. Yeah. Yeah. The relationship to work is different.


Ryan-Mae

Exactly. So a struggle I had when we were doing this research, I was like, well, all of this is from the UK, so I don't know if that applies to us. And what I love about our leadership is they're not afraid to push back in a constructive way. And it was like, but why? We have people in the UK and I was like, Oh, well, gosh, they're okay.


Ryan-Mae

Yeah, that's a really good point. Like, I don't have a good answer for that. Why am I only thinking in the U.S. box? And that's something that like I remember instantly, that's when you were very like focused on our own selves. So we started the conversation and the research. I, I think I made like a very pathetic deck and I even was like the conclusion I was like, I can't tell you yes or no of this is a good idea.


Ryan-Mae

I can tell you as an employee I am all and I, even if it's for a month, I want all those Fridays off.


Alexa

Yeah. And you were like, we're going to test this. We're going to do like a trial run we did.


Ryan-Mae

So we sat down with our management team and our leadership team and said, Hey, we're going to try this for a quarter. Like, we're going to try it we didn't have a lot of parameters. I'll be really honest. We kind of just were like, Yeah, Fridays off. I don't know, that looks like. And then it was like, Oh, wait, we we have a customer support team.


Tyson

Like, I was going to ask. Yeah, I'm going to ask, is there anyone that needs to be there? 24 sevenths.


Alexa

Yeah, yeah. And maybe let's go through some considerations before we do second. So we.


Ryan-Mae

We didn't do a great we did talk about it, but I don't think we framed it up very well in the first run.


Alexa

And so what do you, what do you mean by that?


Ryan-Mae

Like, really? Oh, okay. Well, if there's customer support, like we kind of delineated like what does customer support look like? Like what is that like, okay, so who's got to cover Friday? Is it one person is half the team. Like we didn't get deep dove on that. I don't think we I don't think we had a consistent schedule, to be honest.


Ryan-Mae

I think it was like who's was working on Fridays and things like that.


Ryan-Mae

And despite all of that, it's still mostly worked. People were happy and then it came like it's coming up to the end of this quarter. What does it look like? We are very much about engagement and feedback and stuff, so we have a bi weekly anonymous feedback tool. We have a quarterly like I feel valued all this. You can add comments, so it's coming up in every like okay, 40 work week.


Ryan-Mae

What is this look like? The number one thing I think we have like 34 people be like I love the four day week. And I was like, oh gosh. Okay, so if we roll this back, like who's going to deliver that message? Because no, no I'm not.


Tyson

How did you did you do anything? So obviously like there's the engagement results and people saying like, yeah, we love this, but did you do anything to measure outputs? Like, you know, were people still producing the same amount of work so.


Ryan-Mae

That was one of the things we didn't look at the metrics on the front end. We kind of in the middle started and we noticed some of the managers like I was like, why do a Friday meetings? Why I have this to hit? I got hit and I was like, okay. And our philosophy even before the Friday work week is we're outputs based.


Ryan-Mae

So like I have a I have a giant she's awesome. She's a mom. We're in different time zones. And I've always been like, I don't want you to say like, Oh, we did an eight hour day. I want to say like, Hey, I need you to do one, two, three, four. Currently, she's implementing this new software we had.


Ryan-Mae

It's called Perk Showcase. You may be familiar and.


Alexa

Not just Shameless Plug.


Ryan-Mae

Shameless Plug. I'm not being paid by Alexa, so we use the product, but like so but that's I think going to her and saying like, I need the employees uploaded by Wednesday. I think it'll take an hour. If it takes you 2 hours and you don't say it took me 2 hours because X, Y, Z, or I'm blocked and I need you, it just took you 2 hours.


Ryan-Mae

Well, the four other things I assigned you, I still kind of expect to be done if you come and say, Hey, this is actually going to take me 30 hours and this is why and this is where I'm said, Okay, we're going to regroup I don't think we live on a time clock. I don't think we live in a company or a culture.


Ryan-Mae

I've had my boss call me. He's like, What are you doing? I'm a I'm a target. And he's like, Okay, when you're done, can you do this? He's not like, Why are you a target? He he doesn't care. So is what he's asking for are going to be done?


Tyson

Were you able to, like, measure like, measure that during the beta to see if people were we we were.


Ryan-Mae

And we we definitely I think it brought to front like people that were maybe not strong players in the beginning. Like it wasn't necessarily like, oh, you're a terrible and play. It was like, okay, so you have less time. How are you time managing? And even I had to learn to be like, Okay, what do I need to do?


Ryan-Mae

I I'm one of the few on the West Coast where predominantly middle America and mostly East Coast and then beyond. So I had to learn like okay, 7 a.m. Pacific to about 11 is kind of like that's when I'm the most needed the slack, the emails, all of that. So what does that look like? I have a focus block on my calendar every afternoon from three to five.


Ryan-Mae

Can I take a meeting then? Yeah. But instead that's when I do my quiet time and it was learning for everyone how to, to do this. And then we, we came up to the end and we, we kind of all make decisions collaboratively. Like there's always like a final stop. But we were coming to the beta and we met with all the managers and 99% of them were like, I'm in, this is great, I love this.


Ryan-Mae

There was a few that are like, Hey, we have, we still have numbers ahead, we still have product to produce, we still have these things. What does that look like? And that's where I really think we then kind of Deep Dove didn't get it right. We built a structure, we built policy, we kind of did all the things that I like and like, Oh, I hate doing this because I don't want to have to be in like an email 400 times a day and be like, Hey guys, here's the rules or Here's the box, but we need.


Alexa

It. But that's different than what I think we talk about a lot, and that frustrates people is when you just roll this shit out, when you just do the second step that you did before, you do the first step that you did, which is the pilot and what the pilot lets you do is it lets you one walk it back to if it doesn't work to get all that crap under your belt, that's like, Oh, we didn't really think about ours.


Alexa

And Oh, we didn't really think about time zones and oh, we didn't really think about like what how this affects our PTO policy and all these other things, right? So you get a period of grace to like watch and learn, and then you get to go in and say, these are the rules and these are the rules because, right, like, here's the rules of engagement for everybody.


Alexa

And we know this and our implementing this because we've watched this unfold over whatever a quarter or however long you guys that you did your part of it.


Ryan-Mae

And that was the thing.


Alexa

Yeah, I think that's really all it is. Yeah.


Ryan-Mae

It was one we didn't think about. So Presidents Day it was so obvious the three day workweek probably not possible. Maybe for other orgs. I don't know. I'm not here to tell every org what to do. But like we had President's Day, my day off, and then I know I was like, I'm not working Mike. No, like, it was pretty clear.


Ryan-Mae

Most of us, the employees were like, there's no way, like, I understood I have to get done.


Alexa

Yes. And today I have it three days yet.


Ryan-Mae

So it was like, okay. So we we realized like, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday is not good. That's not a great setup. So we looked at the holidays and said, okay, for if we're going to make this permanent. I think at that point, like, we still had Memorial Day, Fourth of July. I'm just using your funds because I know most overhead had Labor Day.


Ryan-Mae

We're coming up on Thanksgiving and then Christmas and it was like, okay, so we're taking Memorial Day Monday off. And the way we set it up, we have the Friday off before Memorial Day, and then we have Memorial Day, and then we work Tuesday through Friday. We just shift it. Yeah. So you still get a four day weekend, then you've a two day weekend, then you go back to your three day weekend.


Ryan-Mae

It's, it's not impossible. And then we looked at times like we have so we have Christmas off on the 26th because it's the observed and then we have Black Friday. But then the second is also a federal holiday. What does that look like. It's said it's quiet so leaders just take that can be a three day workweek. We like I think we like 60% of our staff is on video so like honestly like right other people that are willing to stick it out be like oh none for you so like it was everything was case by case and then it was this do you think.


Alexa

How do you think about things like PTO right you're like, okay well we just went to giving everybody 52 days off a week. A year. I mean, there's one a week, you know, it's.


Ryan-Mae

Probably we.


Alexa

Have to maybe.


Ryan-Mae

It's 40 flex PTO.


Alexa

Okay.


Ryan-Mae

So we, we have, they use it as you need it and we.


Tyson

Like a hybrid sort of thing. Yeah.


Ryan-Mae

I wouldn't say it's unlimited because we do our conscious of like leave of absence like things like that. Like I said, we support families but I would love to be like, oh, I'm just going to be on PTO for a year while I like nurture this child. That would be great. It's not realistic. And so we do, we, we have there's not a set number though, but we just kind of keep an eye on it.


Ryan-Mae

And honestly, more of like the concern we have is people not taking PTO.


Tyson

Right, right.


Ryan-Mae

Yeah. So it's like it's we we're very blessed. I also think that the culture of Blackthorne fosters like the best employees and I don't think it's because like we are doing anything. I think I've had people seek us out. I love the three the three day weekend. I love your CEO take on this. I've worked for your CEO before.


Ryan-Mae

I think we have a really great group of humans that are very like aware like, hey, this is a really big privilege. And so I want to make it work. I want to get my objective done. Is it it looks like less hours because bamboo, you just have four days off instead of five and then fractional PTO if your kids plays on a Wednesday.


Ryan-Mae

Yeah, you're going to be gone for 2 hours to go do that. But most people are taking their pets to the vet, go into doctor's appointments.


Alexa

Do you want a life admin days?


Tyson

You can get that on Friday. Yeah, you.


Ryan-Mae

Can book all that. Yeah. And nobody is going to fault you for like, hey, I can only get in like I had some teeth left and my dentist has like the dream schedule. He works Tuesdays and Thursdays, so I was like, there's really I'll be back next, right? I'll be like, I'm working like tended to Tuesday and Thursday.


Ryan-Mae

So this is my deal. But like, nobody was like, oh, my gosh, you're taking off a Tuesday afternoon. It's like, well, that's what it is. It's not a judgment situation. And it does weed out the people that abuse it. If someone's like, Hey, I'm taking 200 hours, a PTO on top of 55 days off a year, you can have the conversation and with our unlimited and flex policy the way we have it, where it is like we ask for advanced notice, we ask for a minimum of two weeks.


Ryan-Mae

If it's a planned thing, we ask you to go to your manager. We also ask you to look, our, our calendars are all public so you can tell who's out, who's when. Like if I go to look at the last week of the year, I can look at the people that are out. If everybody else on the people team is out, I'm probably not going to feel great about being like, Hey, I'm just like, mosey.


Tyson

Yeah. Can I ask about how this impacts pay?


Ryan-Mae

We didn't change, panel. Oh, because our pay is based on doesn't it? Wait, can you pay on the deliverables right so.


Alexa

Yeah, you can make.


Ryan-Mae

Your.


Alexa

Deliverables. Not by hours.


Ryan-Mae

I get paid to be the director of the People team, which includes running payroll, implementing.


Alexa

Remember Tyson. But in the United States, outside of certain certain kinds of work as they are designated, you are not there is not a requirement for our like hourly overtime consideration all of that. So it works salaried is like a truly sort of like open bucket around here.


Ryan-Mae

Right? Unless you're in California and she said 87 hours a week.


Tyson

One. Yeah. Oh, okay. I have another sort of like a devil's advocate question is there and maybe you guys have a really excellent culture and there's none of this but is there a pressure during those four days to work longer hours or do people feel as though they're smushing five days of work into four days? Because that's the biggest.


Tyson

Any time I've ever experimented with anything like this and my companies, people feel inundated that they cannot do it like they're like I already felt like I was working so many hours and now you've just taken a day off. And I just I can't I can't get anything done. In the four days.


Ryan-Mae

We did ask about that. And I think I want to see our sales team kind of felt the push the most. And they that was where we had to make like a special exception. If it's end of month, end of quarter and that's a Friday, they're going to work anyway. And we know that they're in commission based like you don't.


Ryan-Mae

So we're not here to say like, oh, well, we would want that free labor. So what we did with our sales team is if end of month, our end of quarter is on a Friday, you work that Friday and takes all in one day off and it is no it is written in our, our wiki. It is out there because I'm not here to fault anyone and I don't know if it's our culture.


Ryan-Mae

I think some teams feel the pressure more than others to take like I can't take time off. I'm already busy enough as is and too, I take every Friday off, you know, if I'm doing a highly intricate report and I want no one slack and email me, I'm going to do that on a Friday morning.


Alexa

So this is my question and I really want to get down because I know you're a really big proponent of this. Right? And I really thank you for like walking us through this for people to hear like the logistics of how this works, because I feel like people either here for day work, we can roll their eyes or here for 40 work we can go, oh my God, I want that.


Alexa

So I can like, you know, take longer vacations and chill the fuck out and like, it's not really either of those things. There's a lot more considerations. But I so for example, my team has unlimited PTO or, you know, sort of, you know, take take if you need time, take time. That's my that's my policy. And just like take it, I will give you at least two weeks during the year.


Alexa

You need to take at least one more. But like I, the way that I structure my day or days is that there are weeks where like my Friday is kind of like my light day, right? It's like I've got some meetings in the morning. We keep our huddle like, you know, our end if we huddle is like the end of the week.


Alexa

And then it's like, yeah, cool. You want to take four Friday morning and go do whatever you need to do. Or Friday afternoon. Do whatever you need to do. Like that's yours to manage. Like, cool. I don't care. So people could already do that ostensibly with your policy if it was flex or unlimited, where it's just like be in charge of your own time.


Alexa

So why is capping it at Thursday more beneficial? Like, is it just like the mental space to be like Fridays all yours? Because I would still work on Fridays sometimes I love days where nobody's bothering, you.


Tyson

Know, it only works if everybody's taking the same day off. It only works.


Ryan-Mae

Out to me. That's what I thought too. I genuinely think it was mostly psychological because we have a lot of people. I have a couple employees right now I'm chasing down as we started develop this the other kind of watershed that came from as we introduced the PTO minimum. You have to take one consecutive week off year like it's not a lot.


Ryan-Mae

And I have people right now, I'm like, Hey, where are you going? Do you want me send you some links to cool places I've traveled? You follow these people that are all over the world, like, what are you doing? What we are you taking? Like, what are you, what are you doing, guys? And it's a it's an opportunity.


Ryan-Mae

But don't say my work is too much. I have too much. I can't take time off. I feel pressure, I have this, I, etc. And I think the psychological game of being like everyone is shutting down on Friday and something that we introduced when we kind of really framed it out and put we have a standard Friday out of office and it's straight up.


Ryan-Mae

I know Alexa has gotten it from me so I was like, Hey, we're off on Friday. We're taking work life balance. We're trying to really be a proponent of that. Here's some links to our product. Here's how you can schedule with me. Here's how, like if you've a bug, if you have an emergency and we have like certain teams customer, I know customer success has an on call person on Fridays and then they take a day the next week.


Ryan-Mae

Customer support is broken into two. I think they're calling them pods now where their schedule is two day weekend, 40 weekends. The one week they work Monday through Thursday, the following week they work Tuesday through Friday. And so the people that are off on Blackthorne Fridays, it's like, hey, if you have an issue and you need success email, blah, blah, blah, or if you have an issue, blah, blah, blah, do this.


Ryan-Mae

My department's three people, my generalist is still kind of ramping up. So mind us says Hey, if you have an emergency, text me. Here's my cell phone, right? And if somebody texted me and is like, I didn't get paid, I'm Herb, I have a family emergency I'm going to jump in and I'm going to help. Those are things.


Ryan-Mae

Also having people.


Alexa

Yeah.


Ryan-Mae

Yeah. Having people working on Fridays, even if it's maybe I think we're at like maybe 10% on Fridays and it's rotating. It's not always the same 10%. They're so employees. Things can still happen. If somebody has a harassment claims, somebody gets hurt. If somebody has a thing, I need to be available I think there's only been maybe twice where I've had to jump in and be like, No, I need to do this.


Ryan-Mae

Yeah, but it's okay.


Tyson

I really do feel though, that like there needs to be alignment on the day. So like you said, like you've picked Friday and it's just like the culture. Everybody shuts down on Friday. Yes. There's maybe be some exceptions where like the odd person has to be there to keep the lights on, whatever. But I think that, like, where the magic happens is when everybody's off on the same day so that you can truly, like, relax and like, not be like, oh, I might as well.


Tyson

Just like people are messaging me left, right and center. I might as well just hop back because then then you feel that pressure to like go back to work right so I.


Alexa

Feel like I took it was my day off, but I didn't really take.


Tyson

The day. Right, exactly. And I'm like, okay. It's like, yeah. And then it's just like becomes, you know, it loses its magic. It's like, I really am like I like I have again, I've gone through this experiment where we've had Fridays off and it's nice because, like, there's the pressure off. You're not coming back to shift storms. Well, maybe sometimes you do but you know, you're not getting.


Alexa

All that job. How do I.


Ryan-Mae

Know.


Tyson

You're getting all these messages? It's kind of like the week off in the holidays, like we've talked about this on a previous episode, like the shutdown. It's there's magic there because you don't feel any pressure at all to log in and and it is disconnect it is.


Alexa

It's the shutdown itself.


Ryan-Mae

It's truly but it's a psychological like consistency psychology. And that's what creates the magic.


Alexa

Yeah, I love that. So what are. All right. I know you're a big fan. I know you're a proponent. I want you to poke holes in this. Right? Right where what are some of the cons?


Ryan-Mae

Are there people that work? There are people that work, and I am one of them. But you also get a handful. It's like, oh, I did this on Friday. And you're like, but who who asked you to work on Friday who like is it as your managers like saying you got to do this on a Friday? I want to know because I can be like, hey, hey, not cool.


Ryan-Mae

Are you choosing.


Alexa

Are there other cons? Like like the sales team was like, I can't get my clothes rate hit if you guys cut my time and by 20% like you're literally.


Ryan-Mae

Because that was it. You get your quote.


Alexa

Unquote time by 20.


Ryan-Mae

Percent. I think I think that was a concern for our sales team at first. And we, I think that our leadership was like, okay, how can we help? How can we support? Do you foresee a way where this could work? I don't know. Like the full result of those conversations.


Alexa

Right?


Ryan-Mae

I believe that our focus.


Alexa

Has to be everybody. It has.


Ryan-Mae

To be don't have to buy.


Alexa

Us a week if I want to.


Ryan-Mae

Exactly like end so I, I get this the most with like new hires, but I like will do work on Fridays. I'm like, I personally occasionally will do stuff. I will not be slacking my team I will not be emailing. And we send constant reminders. You can schedule fax, you can schedule emails.


Alexa

Yeah. I mean, like I work on the weekends, like, I love working on Sundays because nobody fucking bothers me. And I get a bunch of shit done, but I tell my team I'm like, I won't bother you on Sunday.


Tyson

I feel like the root of this problem is that our weeks are just so inundated with, you know, ship meetings and we just don't have time because I'm also a fan of like, I've seen like companies do, like, there's one day a week where you like the culture is that you do not book meetings have meetings. Yeah. And that's like an effective that's like a really effective tool to use as well.


Tyson

If you're thinking like, look, my leader is never going to approve a four day workweek, but like, at least consider taking a day off from meetings because it's too much like especially now like that. Most of us are virtual. The meetings are just it's ridiculous.


Ryan-Mae

It's like endless. Yeah.


Tyson

Yeah.


Alexa

So it's February. I think you're spot on. Go ahead, Rami.


Ryan-Mae

We did poke holes in that meeting park. There are stand ups for smaller teams. There's never going to be a companywide meeting on a Monday. There's never going to be an all hands or big announcements or things like that on a Monday, because we don't want the people that worked the Friday to be like, Oh crap, I should jump on this because it's an all hands.


Ryan-Mae

So our all hands on staff are always on Wednesdays or management call us always on Wednesdays. We we don't do, you know, meeting days because I think that on top of a four day.


Tyson

Workweek, you don't need to. Yeah, yeah, we have one.


Ryan-Mae

We have a new meeting day. I'm not going to do things like where if my team's like, hey, are you doing something on Friday? I'm not scheduling meetings. I'm not talking to vendors. Like I'm not doing any of that. I'm doing stuff that I need to check off my list because my time management has afforded it to that Friday.


Ryan-Mae

And is it because I had too much work? Maybe some weeks? Is it because I snuck out early and got my nails done on a Wednesday? Sometimes, like it's just all about, like, self-care, but it's not sneaking out.


Alexa

Like, it's not.


Ryan-Mae

What I used to work. I was a.


Alexa

Culture that's like, you when you do you like.


Ryan-Mae

Rob? Only like a shirt.


Alexa

In the middle of the day.


Ryan-Mae

Yeah, it's it's probably a psychology. I look at my schedule and say, Okay, I can leave early on Wednesday because like, Tina can get me in. I can do the payroll reports on Friday, or I can do some stuff in the background on our 8 hours on Friday because there's a one person task it's not affecting everyone. I'm not sending stuff to my team.


Alexa

Right. But you're also an adult. You're also someone who takes a ton of pride in their work, and you're someone who, like, can run their own schedule and like I, I hate to say it right, but that's a little bit of a rare trifecta. That's what it takes for this to work. Otherwise, you wonder what policies the rules down people's place and what I think is fascinating and I was reading an article about this as I was researching for this for this episode is that I can't for the life of me remember it, but I'm sure we could drop it in the show.


Alexa

But I think it was fortune or maybe it was Fast Company did an article that was basically talking about how it's sort of like the reason that four day workweeks are more appropriate are they make the argument that it's more appropriate now. I don't know that it's more appropriate. Like, I'm not sure that anything about the way that we work has changed so much that it justifies automatically cutting 20% of the workday, the workweek for everybody.


Alexa

But this idea of strategic inaction, which basically is like so they equate it to to the idea of a relay team. So you've got four, four relay runners who all have to get the baton to be able to run. And you need to get you get scored by how fast you get the baton across the finish line. Right.


Alexa

Standard for like for like really. And what they basically equate it to is you have four runners, but you're not making the other three runners do something while they're waiting for the first runner to run their legs because the goal is not to make those four runners as busy as possible. The goal is to get that baton across the line as fast as possible.


Alexa

So what you're doing is you're optimizing those the efficiencies of those four runners together into a system. So, for example, the sort of like work example of this is like your customer success team can't actually do anything with a client until a sales handoff is made. Right. So it would you could imagine a world where your sales team works a different schedule or an earlier schedule than your customer success team.


Alexa

Right? Because there's a natural transition from one to the other in the system of basic sales, which is really interesting when you think about because I think to Tysons point, like I think it's really interesting to watch people grapple with like what the fuck do we do with ourselves now that it's just not I have to be in my at my desk nine to five and people expect that I know what I'm doing.


Alexa

It's like, no, you have to figure this shit out for yourself and you don't like. Our days are just so full of bullshit. Like there's just so full of like shit that we've told ourselves is useful under this guise of like productivity. And if you I just read this really awesome book that was it's called Essentialism I wrote a few months ago, but it's basically like, do more, do less, but do better.


Alexa

Like, like being shit down. It's like, yeah, that's like but like similar to essentially here's two of them is Eric Maxim. I think it's a guy's name. It's like Essentialism and one of their other fantastic books. But the whole concept is like, you're doing too much little bullshit. So if you just peel this back to like what is truly essential and towards the target, you probably could get that all done in four days.


Alexa

Like you absolutely could write like if you, if you cut out all the shit and you force yourself to be more efficient, it's, it's forced efficiency basically, which is good. That's a really good exercise. Yeah.


Ryan-Mae

It is definitely forcing us to be more efficient it is definitely forcing people to be more accountable because you like have deliverables and stuff. But I also think there's two things like that really resonated from what you said. You're like, Oh, you're taking away 20% of the time, am I?


Alexa

So figure out how am I?


Ryan-Mae

Because honestly, like if 100% of the workload and if I add I used to be in person every single day, if you take out all the times I walk to Starbucks, all the lunches, all this, that probably adds up to Friday. So I'm still doing 100% of the work in the same amount of time I'm just managing it better.


Tyson

But that can be problematic though that that's like the, the problematic piece though is that people feel as though during those four days there's no.


Alexa

Nothing but work.


Tyson

No wiggle room like you got to because you culture the output expectations whether you have like if you're working. I don't know exactly what you're up to at Blackthorne, but like there is still an expectation to deliver something. And you know, if it takes us five days to do that, let's say to like that's why I'm very curious about like measuring output because I get it like it's not based on time, it's not bums on seats.


Tyson

But you can't deny that having an extra day allows people that output because it's not like the relay race where we're sitting waiting, right? Like there's 30,000 batons. I don't just sit and wait when I pass something to my colleague, right? It's no next batons. I'm going to grab.


Ryan-Mae

The next.


Tyson

One off I go again.


Alexa

And I like to think of the analogy of some of the batons are worth more. So you should focus on passing those.


Tyson

That's, that's important too. And that is, that's lean. That's like the Toyota Lean principles, I feel like. But like I feel like the problem is like the list is endless. Like I could probably work for seven days, like, you know, so anyone could.


Ryan-Mae

So but this is something I'm learning personally. I'm this is I'm just going to I don't want to speak for everyone to Blackthorne because I think that there's a mixed bag on how people manage their four day workweek. I personally will look at my and I'm assuming, Tyson, you and I are in the same boat. We have our list every Monday.


Ryan-Mae

We start like, okay, run payroll, check benefit enrollment, do that change of status, talk to someone. So a sign of training and the list never really gets smaller because new stuff comes up and stuff pivots and then something happens. And you have to go back to what I've learned and this is something very powerful that our CEO, who I report to has said to me, he's like, if that doesn't get done, what what's the cause and effect?


Ryan-Mae

If I don't run payroll, it's huge. That is, people are going to be mad we're breaking all these laws. If I forget to ask someone to do their cybersecurity training until Monday is blocked or I'm going to go under, am I going to get fired? What's going to happen? And it forces you to really, really look at what am I carrying I'm having to learn to separate.


Ryan-Mae

And what the 40 work week is operating is I'm not just Ryan me, the H.R. person. I'm Ryan may the wife the aunty, the cat lady. I volunteer at our local library 2 hours every Friday morning. Like there's so much more to me than that. And it's it's helping me establish like what are the priorities? I personally do not want me to poke holes in a four-day work workweek.


Ryan-Mae

You have a shit culture. It's not going to work if you're like, everybody's unhappy. Our metrics are terrible. So here's what we're going to do, guys. We're going to give you a four day work week to shut you up.


Alexa

If you did it. But you got a stranglehold on everybody, right? Because I do more. I do like I think people talk about the side of this that's like, oh, well, if you give up, if you do a four day workweek, like, how do you do PTO and how do you just, like, not set the expectation that like any boundary on their time is like now too tough a boundary?


Alexa

It's like, well, you just don't fucking hire those people. You don't you're you get and when you do use it.


Ryan-Mae

It becomes so obvious so fast.


Alexa

Right? Yeah. Yeah. I've had I've had one member of my team be very obviously abusing my policy. And I knew it from the jump and it is what it is. It's been dealt with, but like the point is like it happens and you're not going you're not going to get like the perfect role and the perfect person and the perfect like, you know, work friend and you know, it's just like, you know, you're going to get all these things in one person.


Alexa

But I also think sometimes on the other side of this, you know, is, is like it also doesn't work if you stranglehold it like it doesn't work if you're like, okay, well, it's a four day workweek, but you have to work nine to seven. You get a 30 minute lunch break. We're monitoring your screen usage like you companies get fucking crazy when they worry about bad behavior.


Alexa

They act like assholes. And so if you're worried about bad behavior, I would go with Tyson's recommendation, which is like maybe find a no meeting day to start with and pilot.


Ryan-Mae

That I think you have to have a culture built on trust. I think you have to have a culture built on players.


Tyson

But that's not like employees taking advantage of a situation like you mentioned, like like flex time and limited time that can be taken advantage of. I think the challenge with the four day workweek is actually one at the leadership level, which is they need to not send Slack messages on Fridays, not book meetings on Fridays, not like be at their team for like, oh, like why isn't this not like there has to be a give and take at the leadership level.


Ryan-Mae

I don't think we're this like mythical company that nobody can achieve. I think we have the magic of leadership that's willing to take things and run with them like a four-day work week. I think we have leadership that's like I've never had any one of my leaders be like, Hey, can we just grab time on Friday? That's never happened since we introduced this.


Ryan-Mae

Do we send stocks on Fridays? Yeah. Do they need to be responded to sometimes? Yeah. Most of the time you can ignore it. You can also I feel empowered to say, like, if my boss is like, But I don't think you have all this to be like, do we need to talk about the Safe Communities on Monday 99% of the time is like, Oh no, this is just a Monday thing.


Ryan-Mae

And I should have kept it. Like, I'm just in my head.


Alexa

You started that sentence with. I think the only thing that matters is we come to the end of this conversation, which is I feel empowered to gather.


Ryan-Mae

And that's I think everybody should feel empowered to be able to push back. Everyone should feel empowered to ask questions, even if the question is like Why are we doing this? It's stupid and we shouldn't do it. You should be able to have a space to say that. And we had people be like, I don't think this is going to work and this is why.


Ryan-Mae

And we worked through it.


Alexa

How do those people feel now?


Ryan-Mae

I feel like they're enjoying it. I there's no.


Tyson

Option to opt out, right?


Ryan-Mae

If you choose to do stuff on Friday, you're choosing to do stuff on Friday. You're not scheduling meetings you if you're a manager, you're not making your team do it right now. It'd be kind of so if you if you choose and again.


Alexa

So you know, you just can't like chirp on slack and bother everybody about it.


Ryan-Mae

Yeah, right. You can't be like asking for deliverables when it's just time.


Tyson

I work our heads down work. Yeah.


Ryan-Mae

Yeah. Do your head start where if you got to do it and like I've gotten to just my own habit, I've started saying like in my emails scheduled because I'll pop a bunch of stuff on Friday or if I think of something on a Monday or Sunday night, or whatever, be like, hey, this was scheduled because I don't know, maybe somebody is going to come in if it's a vendor and be like, Oh, we solve this on Sunday.


Ryan-Mae

So then my email on Monday makes no sense. At least then you're like, Oh, she she scheduled this like this was in the past, so it's already solved or smart. Yeah. So it's just everybody's finding a way. I think there's a way to like quiet opt out, do your heads down work and things. But I think essentially the four work week is empowering people to do the admin of their lives in a reasonable amount of time.


Ryan-Mae

Don't run to the doctor at 1 p.m. and check your slack and check your phone and be like, Hey, like the meme we've all seen in Europe. Hey, I'm taking six weeks off to go backpacking in the US. Hey, I'm getting a kidney removed, but I'll be on my cell phone. You're telling element out of it.


Alexa

I and see that one. That's good.


Ryan-Mae

But like so dead on like this as Americans, we're like tied to it and I feel like it's really you have to be empowered. And you nailed Heather with that, like agreeing on it. Actually, you have to be empowered to say like this isn't going to happen. And I use myself again as an example when people are like do you ever feel judged for taking time off and my wedding and my big wedding in December of 20, 21, it was pre-planned.


Ryan-Mae

I told them are taking two weeks off like this was a thing well, lo and behold, right before all of this, I had a major health crisis and it was like, hey, so you're now having surgery last week in December and you're gonna be on medical leave for four weeks. So I worked I think like six business days in December.


Ryan-Mae

Like, I don't think I put in a lot of time. I delegated, I had list, I had contingency, I had fallback, I was available for emergencies I never once personally felt like my leaders were like, Hey, check who's worked here for five months. Like that was a cool like 40 days. You just took off if anything, it was like that's.


Alexa

The goal rate is to build structures. People can actually lean on like good structures and good. I don't want to even call this isn't a policy. This is a this is a way of working. This is a style of of teamwork. And that is the goal of all of these things, is to build a structure that a team can actually put its weight on and it will hold.


Alexa

And so like if you're doing a four day workweek, but no one's actually taking Friday off, you're not actually doing a fucking four day workweek. Right. And I think that and that's.


Ryan-Mae

Where we.


Alexa

You've got to go in, right? You got to go all.


Ryan-Mae

We want our customers and our vendors and everybody to know. And I've worked I mean, I've worked with your team, Alexa, obviously, because we're in we're engaged and they'll be like, oh, I'm building. I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't work on Fridays. Can I take a meeting on Friday? If it's just me, what am I going to know?


Ryan-Mae

Because I'm trying to be by example. I'm trying to be the person that I want. And I think it works when you have a team that's bought in, your leadership is bought in. And like Thyssen said, they have to be accountable if leaders are sending flags, maybe they need the gentleman. Like, Hey, it's been a lot. What I've noticed is our social slacks have gone off that off the charts Friday, Saturdays and Sundays.


Ryan-Mae

The Pat Channel The Kid Channel, the photos and Videos Channel, the Hey, I watched this, I'm reading this. Those go off all weekend. Like people are like, Hey, look what I'm doing, hey, look what I'm doing. And they're engaging, but nobody's feeling obligated to respond. I don't think I don't obviously I'm not in every single person's head, but I think that it all piles on top of each other.


Ryan-Mae

We have a social culture we are connected. It doesn't matter where we're from, people are engaging. And it's not just work engagement.


Tyson

It really does take the pressure off for that admin shit. Like, honestly, like that stuff just it grinds my gears having to like leave middle of the day for like an appointment or something or like to go get something. Like, that's my the best thing about having when I've had Fridays off was just being able to do all that stuff and just life admin.


Alexa

Yeah, yeah.


Ryan-Mae

Tyson, you took 40 hours a week and you're like, Oh, I took my kid to the doctor, I went to the dentist like, that's what vacation?


Alexa

Yeah.


Tyson

The company can just pay me more so I can pay someone so I can contract that shit out because I don't want to do it anyways.


Alexa

That's the other option. It all comes out in the wash, I assume, when you look at it like that. All right, well, I hate to do it, but, Tyson, it's time to move to our people problem. What do we got this week?


Tyson

Okay, so listener question help. I'm an H.R. person, but I actually really like compliance. Is there still a place for me in the new H r oh.


Alexa

Spicy all right. They like compliance. I notice. I don't have to swallow that for a second.


Alexa

Ryan, may you want to chime in? I.


Ryan-Mae

I don't want to say I like compliance. I like guidelines. Like, don't operate machinery without goggles because you're losing. I'm like, I'm just going to throw that right. I do think there's a place. I think it's in consulting. I think it's working for a PTO because they have HIPPA that'll sit there and feel like, hey, so you still don't have a handbook.


Ryan-Mae

Maybe like, we should do that. And then the person that like the cool Head Start startup like I am can be like, oh, she's making us do this or he's making us do that. Like, it's totally not me, guys. I'm still cool, but then you're still getting the protection. I think there's also a lot of companies that still want the rubber stamp compliance.


Ryan-Mae

And I'm not saying that in a negative way. There are some very successful industries that have to be highly regulated, and I learned that with veterinary. Like we had drugs in the hospital, doctors are licensed, the assistants are laser and the x ray machines naturally there's so many different compliances. It's crazy and it has to happen and you can't open the doors.


Alexa

So, yeah, so I think I think that's what I think is really clear to articulate here. And because I think that's why this person is asking this question, is there room for me in the new year is like you, it's a little bit like your finance department. They should be separate things. And the reason that you want a separation of church and state is because you want the compliance team to be able to look at something from the position as a business owner, from the position of what is the risk to me as a business.


Alexa

Right. And so what you don't want is the people team operating from the position of what is the risk to me as a business, right? You want the people team to be able to fight the other argument, which is like, yes, but this is a human and we need to deal with the human.


Ryan-Mae

Here's the mentality affects.


Alexa

Exactly here's how this how this plays out. Here's the implications of this. Here's how this sounds to a person when you say these things out loud. So aside from just being like, oh, you should just be in like employee relations, which I don't think is the answer this person is looking for. No, no, no, no. Tyson and Tyson's mom, I think, would both give us a hard no on that one.


Alexa

Is that you? There is there is absolutely a place for you because it's really, really important that someone out on the people side of the house can be the can be the translator of that need. Right. So I actually and it's like our one of our very first guest Dom Marriott, who I adore, was like ask for forgiveness, not permission.


Alexa

You need that person on the people team. You need the person on the team is like, no, no, I know what compliance is telling me, but I know a way to do this, that this still works. Right? Because otherwise compliance will just it's like having your it's like asking your lawyer. The lawyer is always going to give you the safest or like most lawyerly answer, that's like this definitely most expensive.


Alexa

Here's the most expensive, safest place, but also like watching their own ass answer and like, it is your job to interpret, like, okay, that means you've given me, you've given me guardrails. I can operate within the guardrails. And so you need someone on the people team who can look at this and say, okay, this is a bit of a weird situation or a big new policy or a, you know, thing.


Alexa

We want to try to, you know, you know, push the boundaries on. I'm in charge of the I'm in charge of keeping us inside the lines right. And that's actually really, really powerful and really important. But you cannot be the person who is the stickler for compliance and wants to be the one represen in the business. In that case, you should just go work in compliance.


Tyson

Yeah. And hold on. Like, let's be clear, like the new H.R. and how we're talking, you know, being strategic partner. But that's not anti compliance right? Like we still have to be compliant.


Alexa

We're not anti finance. Like we love.


Tyson

Finance. Yeah, we're anti H.R. is the police, right? Like that's what, you know, the anti is. So there will always, always so long as there is employment law, be a space for someone who likes compliance in the world of H.R. just like you said. You know, Ryan, me how you started this conversation. You know, you knew the the the federal holidays in the States and how that was what the implications were going to be the your four day work week.


Tyson

Well how is that implications now across across the world and like what how can just taking like cutting a day off the work week like are there any repercussions across the world. It's like anything we do, any change we make, we have to especially in a global world. I see these rules often call them global like global policy and compliance there's tons of those types of rules out there and that's a huge one is as we start to scale and go global K like what are the ramifications of making like some of these changes.


Tyson

So there will always be a place, we love you, we love that you love compliance, so we don't have to worry about it.


Ryan-Mae

And even with like the new the new H are like things I believe in patrons, parents, I 100% am I going to stay here and get well versed in every country, in every state, in every jurisdiction?


Tyson

Hell no. Not going to go.


Ryan-Mae

To compliance first then.


Alexa

Yes, that's also the same.


Ryan-Mae

I mean.


Tyson

Yeah.


Alexa

But it's also like it's why you like Goodrich. Our teams have a really good employment lawyer because you still need one no matter what. Like, it's not your job as a people person. To know every employment law across. It's like.


Tyson

Consultative.


Alexa

Reason. Exactly. You don't know how to go get those resources or hire those resources for the firm in a way that's not a financial burden. Right? So that's the shit that I think makes this really interesting is you get to be like the, the sort of committee head for that kind of stuff. But yeah, I think there's definitely a place for it and you know, you just got it.


Alexa

You just got replacements.


Ryan-Mae

For every part of our other than like our grandmas, each other they like the lady from M.S. where she's like, Where's your paperwork?


Alexa

Like Mike Wazowski is like.


Ryan-Mae

That's it. And we have I mean, we live in a neighborhood we're in an age where we were just a whole other drama that we could do another podcast on. But basically, like, she's out of the summer for I've, I've been banned from meetings because my husband's the president and my mouth has gotten me in trouble multiple times.


Ryan-Mae

So luckily there's not an H.R. person on the radio aboard because I would be in so much trouble every day. But like, she's global head of each other for a major company in the Silicon Valley and she's been like, are you one of those companies is like millennials, like just all this, like work from home and all this.


Ryan-Mae

I'm like, hell, yes, we are. Her and I are never going to be the same age. Ah, but her function at her company probably works well for them. So there's a space for everybody. I'm just not going to go apply there because there's no right. I don't want.


Alexa

Two different strokes for different folks. Yeah. All right. Well, with that Ryan Maye, where can people find you if they like what you have to say?


Ryan-Mae

I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I've been quiet lately. I'm mostly just LinkedIn. I would say Instagram, but that's literally like 900 photos of my catch.


Tyson

And yes.


Ryan-Mae

Six weeks photos of my Christmas trees in my. Yeah, my husband is like infamous. Like he'll be like, look at how beautiful the cat lived. And then he's like, oh, look, you pass out because we were watching a movie. I'm like, so photos the husband takes of cats. He looks like a model and he's all perfect. And I'm like.


Tyson

Okay, I'm beautiful. He loves.


Alexa

Sprawled out. My cat is all right. Ryan, Matt, it's been a true pleasure. Thank you for being here for evangelizing the four day workweek, and we'll catch you on the next one.


Ryan-Mae

Yes.


Tyson

Thank you.



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