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077 - 2022 Wrapped!

As Chumbawumba once said... we 'sing the songs that remind him of the good times' and a bunch of other nonsense you yell at a bar when that song comes on. Now that the holiday party season is wrapping up and you can treat your ears to something better than Chumbawumba, let’s revisit some of the best moments from our 2022 season of People Problems. Pour yourself a cup of good cheer and take a walk down memory lane with us in our 2022 Wrapped episode! Happy Holidays and we’ll see you in 2023!



Follow the podcast on Linkedin, Instagram, and TikTok at @peopleproblemspod

Follow the hosts:

Alexa Baggio on Instagram, Tiktok, and LinkedIn

Tyson Mackenzie on Instagram at @hr.shook

What's up, Tyson?

What is up? We are we.

Doing? We have made it. It is our land at the word of the year. I can't believe we're here. I can't believe another year has gone by now. And by 20, 22. Don't let the door hit you.

I think we're all ready to say goodbye to 20, 22. You know.

I feel like I've said that for the last three years. And this one I might mean the most. Yeah. Like we're ready for a new year.

It's been a lot. It really has been a lot. Yeah, it's.

Been a lot. It's time. I know. It's just days on a calendar, but I'm. I'm mentally ready. Besides celebrating the guests, we're going to highlight and the episodes we're going to highlight in this recap episode, which I'm excited for. I'm ready to put the rest of this year behind me.

Yeah. And you know what's.

Ready for new.

Things? Reflecting as we were kind of going through some of our episodes and all of that. Like, we really did have some amazing conversations, which I'm super proud of. I'm super proud.

Of the dope conversations. We have grown our following a ridiculous amount. So thank you to all the people who listen to this for the year or recently. Welcome. We're happy to have you. And yes, so this is going to be a quick recap episode of the year. This is not only some of our most popular episodes from the year, but eight clips of most popular episodes as well as some of our favorite guests So some quick some quick clips from the year just to recap and do a quote unquote, 20, 22 wrapped.

Here we go. All right. Our first episode from the year is episode 71 employee Love Languages with Eric Kurschat. This is an awesome episode. We have a lot of fun making it, obviously, because Eric was a great guest, but also because love languages or disc assessments or really any assessment is just a super fun tool to talk about.

We had a great time with Eric.

You know, anything can work.

I definitely need a natal chart personally. I need to know what time you were born, when you were born and where you were born. So you probably have a communication and good communication.

I will say I find most of that to be who he and I really love to tease Tyson about it as people know, but I also think it is helpful because, you know, do I do I believe in the astrology charts? I don't know. I have no idea if I actually believe in it. I am a textbook, Leo, based on every definition of it I've ever read.

But what I do find just to use a silly example to illustrate your point, Eric, is that it can be a helpful tool in getting someone to understand what you're talking about or giving someone like a multi-dimensional tool that is easier than saying I am this one thing. It's it's these tools allow people to communicate in saying I am a part of a multi dimensional thing and here's where I fall in it or where I identify with it.

So what I'm trying to tell you is that I fall on this part of the spectrum right? Or I hold these traits very dear, or I have this kind of communication style. Therefore I struggle with this other one right there trying to give you context because they're these are all multi-dimensional assessments. They're also all, you know, to say you are a Leo or to say you are a Virgo is to assume like 30 different things about a person, none of which are all true for anyone, regardless of what their star sign is.

But, you know, same thing with this. I'm not all the and all I like. Everyone has an S.A.C. right? And so it gives you it's kind of like a layered way of communicating and giving people context that I think helps lessen the intensity and the unforgiving ness of things like I'm an extrovert or I'm an introvert, which can be really harsh to people.

I think that's a wonderful point, and that's baked into the language of desk. You know, we say that we prefer one or another styles. As soon as you say I am a C, which I might prefer the C style I'm I'm putting myself in a corner and it's a crutch. It's like, well, I'm not capable of stepping outside of my comfort zone.

I'm incapable of connecting with you or leading you or selling to you or influencing you because I'm showing up with this particular style. And that's just that's that's a fixed mindset. You know, there's no growth there. And so the language we use is why I prefer this style limiting belief. Yeah. Yeah. I prefer this style. And I am just as capable as capable of anybody else.

At adapting or flexing. You know, I can yes. I my comfort zone tends to be that of someone who identifies as being introverted. But I have so much to learn from, you know, my extroverted friends, I may not become extroverted myself, but, you know, I can adapt in ways that I learn things about about me and about you that benefit both of us and certainly benefit our relationship.

What are some examples? Sorry, just just before you go, we go into that. Like, what are some examples of people like recognizing that maybe more common workplace examples are helpful? Like where this these assessments are like, oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. I can do this better. Oh, I can learn from you. Like, what, what's, what's like some examples of how this gets implemented.

The first thing that comes to mind, because I've been working with a lot of sales teams, is there are some folks that shy away from the sales word and they say, well, I don't I don't know if I like I'm not.

A dirty word.

A Yeah, I'm not sure which it isn't. I mean, it's not a negative thing, but some people just have their connotations and maybe they've had a poor experience buying a used car. I don't know.

But it's Carvana no humans.

And so there's you can make an assumption that, okay, you know, in order to be good at sales, to thrive at sales, you have to show up with that influencing style where you're very actively paced and focused on people in relationships and energetic and can talk a million miles a minute. And if that's your perception of sales, I can understand why some people may be turned off by that.

Well, as it turns out, all four styles can sell in different ways. So discipline as a model says, All right, well, what if you show up with that style? So you're still people focused, but you're not as actively paced. You're a better listener. Well, I might want you then selling a multimillion dollar service over the course of five years, nurturing that relationship, because that's what you do, is you nurture relationships over time and you're very steady in terms of how you go about your work.

If I need to close the deal very quickly, I'm going to want somebody who's in that that D or dominant style comfort zone. If I want a salesperson who's going to make sure that all T's are crossed and I's are dotted, I'm certainly going to call on somebody who's going to prefer that. See your conscientiousness style because there's no room for error in how we're presenting this the sale.

So that's just one example, I think, of where someone comes in and says, Well, jeez, I can't do that because I'm not fill in the blank. And then Desc reminds you, as it turns out, we each bring different strengths to, in this case, a sales role that can be beneficial.

What you'll find in astrology is that people are always like, It's why I think it's so funny. It's people, oh, I'm, you know, I'm a Virgo or I'm a sage and it's like, okay, well, which of the, the characteristics of that are you taking out and assigning to yourself for your own benefit? Right. I feel like I see I'm a textbook, Leo, and that's usually all of the good parts of being a Leo, like the center of the universe, you know, brave, courageous, attention seeking, blah, blah, blah.

And then I'm also like, Yeah, but I'm attention seeking, and I'm the center of the universe. And there's like some real negatives here, but you get to pick and choose, and then you sort of get to chew on that choice, which I think helps people maybe think of themselves and their colleagues a little differently.

You know, because they have a new language to use to your original point, Eric. So I feel like that's what they're saying.

Next time you get feedback, just be like, Baby, I was born this way. Just like my actual that's what it like to say is like Lady Gaga. Yeah, I think.

I think we start with that self-awareness piece. But Alexa, you tied it up really nicely. It's it's it's learning more about the people that you're working with and understanding that someone so isn't just whatever language you used earlier, just a pain in the butt. They just see the world differently and that's okay. And that's actually more than okay.

That should be celebrated because that's going to allow me to do my best work because there are going to be relationships and challenges and projects that show up. And I'm just I'm not suited for I'm not interested in fill in the blank. If I know that I have Alexa on my team and she can run with that, then fantastic.

I can get out of my own way and give that to Alexa. And then Tyson shows up and, you know, brings a completely different set of strengths. Well, great. Then maybe I can delegate something that I'm not going to do as well or just don't have interest in. Or I can be intentional about that and say, No, wait a minute, this is putting me outside of my comfort zone in a way that actually could be beneficial to me, that, you know, my if my natural inclination is to delegate it to somebody else, you know, because I'm somebody who's analytical.

This is far too big picture for me. I'm not sure that I can wrap my brain around it. Maybe that stoic philosophy has sort of the obstacle is the way the sort of mentality. But that thing that seems like it is working to your detriment.

And that's really where that fat steward turned it around my neck.

Yeah. So does Ryan Holiday and all these all these books out there. But the the obstacle is the way. You know, maybe for me, the obstacle is this thing that threatens to push me outside of my comfort zone that I would normally distance myself from. In this case, it might be the very thing that I should be moving toward.

Right. Or the colleague that you find frustrating that you're like, oh, that's because they come at this from this other this other angle. I wonder what it would mean if I could figure out how to like, yeah, see it this this way or work with this.

So instead of how can I close my office door on this person, how can I invite this person in, you know, and sit down in conversation and not to become them, you know, not to, you know, not to change, you know, a leopard or cheetah never changes the spots, whatever the terminology is, not to become that person or to become that style, but to learn to grow more comfortable with it and adapt.

It, broaden your.

To aspects of that style when it's beneficial for me to do so.

Totally. Yeah. And I think it's really important to remember that like these are really good tools for how people see and operate in the world. The other piece that's really important that we neglect all the time in working relationships is the why people do things.


So like you and so that really hide or really high. But if you don't understand why they are that way or what they are planning to do in their lives, that's important to them. That puts you in front of them during the workday. Your, your this language will fall short. You will not be able to communicate certain things.

And there is there are some y certainly built in the desk. So for example, you know the how for me in terms of how I go about a project might be that I I'm going to be dotting my I's and crossing my teeth. You know, there's a certain behavior that you can anticipate from me, but the way that's built into that is that I just value accuracy.

You know, I have the strong need to be right or at least not wrong about things, you know, that that a d that someone who prefers that deer dominant style, they're not going to be much about the small talk, you know, and so the how for them is going to be getting right to business and jumping into the bullet points of whatever needs to get done.

The Y for that deer dominant style might be that they value achievement and they just want so badly to make progress and need to make progress that you know, any small talk is going to get in the way of them getting things done. So you have that y built in. But we're so much more than our desk style sales.

You know, we are the sum of our our upbringing, our morals and ethics.



Circumstance have made me.

Yeah. All right. So that's what Tyson said about what time of day you were born and all of that stuff. There's so much more that makes us who we are, but we need to start somewhere to better understand ourselves and other people. I happen to be a fan of disc, but there are so many different languages out there that people consider this is.

A great tool.

Next up, we have episode 59, No Fucks Given and other misconceptions with H.R. Tracy. I absolutely loved having the opportunity to connect with Tracy. I loved this conversation. Basically, we polled all the misconceptions from the audience about H.R. and we just like riffed and we talked about whether they're true, whether they're false. And you know what? Some of them were true, but need a little bit of extra context.

This episode was really amazing. Because we actually started the conversation on our podcast and then we finished the conversation with H.R. Tracy. I absolutely love podcasting with other H.R. influencers. So this is a lot of fun. Take a listen.

Man. The more I look at this list, the more I'm like, Oh, there's a lot of guys like it who submitted Mean Bitches Misconception.

That was me.

That was someone was just like, Oh, misconception. I mean, bitches like, Oh, yeah, okay. Okay, great. L-O-L Some of these are incredible.

I'm sure there are a few mean bitches in H.R. though. I think. Oh, I knew I could name them.

I could name them. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I could, but I won't.

Yeah, like other H.R. reads minds. Like, who is that a misconception that H.R. reads? My people.

Think that though.

Way. In what way? Like you were supposed to know they wanted a raise or some shit. Like, I don't. What do you mean?

This reminds me of, like, marriage counseling or something where it's like, I'm not a mind reader, but I've never been told that that's probably just like a human nature thing that, you know, you either are super direct and assume that people don't know what you're looking for, what you need, and so you just say it or you're someone who, you know, expects someone to know exactly what you want.

You know what this sounds like? It sounds like an H.R. person who recently was in a conversation with an employee who was, you know, obviously disgruntled and expected that H.R. person to know that they were disgruntled. That's what it sounds like. But I could be wrong.

Yeah. It's like when someone comes to you and they're like, I have a situation, I want to talk to you, but I can't give you any of the details and you're like, Okay, so in order for me to help you. Yeah, exactly. Like I've had a few of those situations. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

That's a good point. I said, Yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It brings up and I don't know if it's on the list somewhere, but this brings up a misconception that I could see coming out of the cracks here. Which is that H.R. knows everything like that.

You see all that stuff on the list?

Yeah. Yeah. It might be a little, little further down his very long list again, but like that you're like, fucking omnipotent. Right? That, like, you know, this disgruntled employee, like, you know, every single flight that they've gotten, just simply because your title has H.R. in it versus like, this person's been dealing with, like, you know, who knows why the fuck they're disgruntled could have been 17 different things they've never heard of.

And like, the misconception of where H.R. would have heard of those things is that, like, they're everywhere and everything gets back to you.

I kind of love that it might be a misconception, but like also.

I say the same thing like, let let me have so much power.

Like The Wizard of Oz over here with the.

Meme of everyone just eating popcorn while there's like office drama.

Fear. Right?


And isn't there such an expectation, though, for us to know everything too? Like, people will just come to me with questions that, I mean, I can point you in, but maybe that's it. People, if you're a supportive resource, then they know they can go to you with at least a good direction to go in.

We do it, too. We always help going back to the fields like stupid questions, like here I am, like fixing someone's computer. And I'm like, Look, you don't want me to do this, but.

Yo, Tyson, we got to talk about healthy boundaries with you. Next up is episode 58, the eight page coffee making policy with Steve Brown. Steve is a truly wonderful human. He literally brought a magic wand to our conversation, and we have a really good chat about what was a true story about an eight page coffee making policy. It's absurd.

Yeah, you said something there that was important, I think, and something about like learning what the business does as well. And I think that that's where art doesn't do themselves any favors is become hot out of the gate. Like, this is my H.R. thing and I want to put my H.R. thing on you without first understanding what the business truly needs.

And we see this and I feel like we've talked about this before, but we see this a lot with stuff like talent reviews and like new comps, a new poll, new this, new that. And we start like pushing all the cool H.R. stuff because like, you know, talent reviews, it's supposed to be great, right? But the business just isn't ready for it or they're not, like, doing something else.

It's more critical or it's not actually helpful for what they're trying to achieve from a business objective. So I think that a lot of the times, even in this like new age of H.R. where like we're all trying to do cool shit and be strategic, we're trying so hard to gain trust of the business and gain credibility that we almost like push the H.R. stuff too much.

And it turns the business off from my experience, because I was I was that new person, like fresh out of school. I was like, you were a little.


You know? I was so overeager. And I'm pushing, pushing, pushing, and like the business, like they push back, right? Like, that's not what they want. So I did just want to sort of double down on you, sort of. Chris passed over quickly, just the idea of getting to know the business and what they do and what they're trying to achieve and then put the H.R. into that.

When I joined The Roses 15 years ago, my boss said, that's for the three first three months, you're going to do nothing. But listen, I don't want to see one idea. I don't want to hear what idea. I don't want to know. I want a group within one conversation. I'm like, Oh, we could do this. Oh, we could do that.

So for three months you said, Okay. Then the third month we said, I just want to hear what you see. And I learned so much more because I was in the business, one of the big shifts I've seen. So I think we really need that's a lot further. The message that keeps coming everywhere podcasts, conferences. Sure is. No, the business, that's crap.

We have to be the business. We are the business. Wherever there's people it's each hour. So it's not understanding of PNL understand how to do it. I mean, hesitating how to do like best or whatever acronym you wanna throw you know, there's people, I'm there and that's what.

I will say. I understand the panel really helps, but if you think about it, I'm a big proponent of that because most people are like, what's a penal of like, Oh man.

And you don't. You got to be you.

Or need to know how those work considering you are in charge of the most expensive. Well I need them on them but yeah I think it's really interesting to think about because again, my, my sort of role in all this is the other side. Like I'm the business person and that's like fighting for this function to be more functional because of all the things you guys are talking about.

And it's interesting to think of, you know, our needs to be the business because you're right, it's people wherever there's people like that's the business. But but the business also needs to reciprocate that sentiment, which is like needs to not be like, hey, you're the guy. That means to make sure that people have an eight page document to make coffee.

Like they need to look at you and go, not Steve's fucking job. Right?

Right, right, right.

I wonder what had to happen is I feel like something maybe happened. Did something happen first, Steve, to make that solution?

It's funny. That same company, giant dress code policy because we had one I.T. woman, now predominately male environment. All right. Women who work across Upwork and people lost their mind. She worked up and she had a tattoo. He had a toe ring. Really? It's evil. What the hell's going on? So so what are we going to do to eyes?

What on earth is she? As you said, it's casual. No, no, it's business. Personal, spiritual. Works here a little to get you fix that. She says that's it. Lost your mind. She says, I'm leaving this company but now, ironically, she went to work for a bank. Yeah.

It's like we're casual. I just. I'm not sure you want everyone talking about your tattoo and your toe ring. You might want to get a little more business with your casual.

So instead of work, most of my peers would be like, Oh, my gosh, you need it, right? It's ring slash altered tattoo policy because, oh.

So instead of cocktail ring policy.

Next up, we were both star struck in episode 61. Good boss, bad boss. Ready, go with people culture collective it was such a blast talking with Veronica, who is the most famous HIV influencer on Instagram and Tik Tok, what was even cooler was that we actually got to meet Veronica in real life and we recorded another episode with Veronica in in the sunny state of California.

So make sure you listen to that one as well. But take a listen to this one to get you started.

And so an employee comes to you. Maybe you've got some real life situations between the two of you. I'm sure we could talk about. 100 of them. Employee comes to you and says, what but you're like, okay, we've officially triggered the like, good job. Bad manager conversation.

Yes. Yeah, of course. So for me, if it's raised with me, the first thing I want to do is obviously validate these the information. You know, you have to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that obviously they're coming to you with something. And I always look at it from a point of view that I have access to leaders as well.

So I have the opportunity to give that feedback in a sensitive way without making sure that that relationship stays obviously operating in a smooth and that it can continue to function. You know, effectively and efficiently. So I think first validate that information, have a coaching conversation with that employee around what things that they have done because you want to empower them as well to have that feedback with the manager, give them that to say, hey, you know what, this isn't working to me or I need more of your time.

So that's the initial conversation is coaching that employee to say, What have we done so far? If there are things and obviously Tyson's important if you if you think your experience is different, but if there's anything else that's around a protected ride or anything kind of legal, if they're putting a full complaint, that's a different approach. So if you have a bad manager that, you know, kind of it's all around your working style, your communication, all the soft skills that are missing because they're an operator are very top oriented.

And how can you coach that employee to flex their style, also to try and have a good operating kind of mode with the manager. And then obviously my role that is to step in, also to speak to the manager's manager and say, here are the development areas for that person that lead up and we want to help them too.

And maybe they weren't set up for success. When they were promoted as it happens often, but they have technical expertise and not people leadership expertise. And so that's that's the way are you at that side. On the other side, if it's a formal complaint about something that a behavior that needs to be adjusted, then that needs to be approach in the kind of the procedural kind of style of investigation and, and things like yeah, yeah.

I know what I love about what you said is that it just shows the reach that H.R. has as well. So you're addressing it at the three different levels. The employee who has the complaint, the manager that the complaints about, and then the managers, managers who should be doing the performance management. Right. So you have access to all three of those points and influence in all three of those areas, which is really great.

And oftentimes in situations like this, like, look, sometimes people change but sometimes people don't change. So what I like to do is I really like when I'm thinking about coaching the employee, I really like to try to work with them in a sense of like, how do I make this person more work savvy? So like, what are they not getting out of their boss right now?

Is it mentorship? Is it the fact that they're like, Whatever it is? Like, what are they not getting the career conversations? And then how can they potentially find that somewhere else? Your mentor does not have to be your direct supervisor. Hey, it could be someone else. Find more than one person. This is the problem that people have is that they connect only to one person and it's their boss.

And then what happens if that person goes, What if it's a great boss and we'll talk about this, but what if it's a great boss and all of a sudden they go, Then what? You have nobody. So it's really important from like a strategic, like, career perspective that you don't just invest in one person because again, like, there's a reason it is.

Yeah. So and I think I've done that through experience. Like, I've been that person like I've I've been very lucky my career to have really, really, really good bosses. But the situation where I had a bad boss, I was lucky in that my that they were a bad boss. Because they were completely absent. That's what made them a bad boss.

And it was fine for me because I could fuck off and do whatever I wanted and I wasn't bothered. That's really my my main experience with the bad boss. So that's not a situation where they're like, I don't know if I've heard situations like they're taking the credit for the work that I'm doing, you know, stuff like that.

So, like, I was happy with my bad boss because they were completely absent. I think I spoke to them like one way to handle and it was amazing because she'd just be like, Oh yeah, just go do all. And, and nobody was watching me, right? Like, I love that shit. But so yeah, that's my piece of advice to the person B or savvy as well.

Like, think about how you can kind of get what you need elsewhere because you don't want to have the expectation that you're going to get everything from one person, even after conversation with H.R.. Yeah, you gotta have multiple man. Multiple man.

So you can't expect.

Everything from your partner, right? Like your partner.

To be everything you got to supplement with friends, family, friends, everyone has that. Like you have that friend you go out with and then you have that friend you like pizza with and, and watch documentaries, right? Like they don't have to be the same. You got.


One just happens to pay your paycheck. So Veronica, real quick, as Tyson just gave some good examples, were examples of common behaviors that managers do or situations that come up with managers that that all of a sudden you're getting employees like coming into your office about this.

Oh, definitely. No one is micromanagement, so people don't appreciate when they're not trusted to do a job. So again, so the micromanagement comes from trust. So whether that manager, you know, obviously doesn't think that the team can do the work, or maybe they're under pressure from their manager to deliver maybe they having unrealistic expectations on them and therefore they kind of, you know, pushing it forward.

So again, and you what you have to do is look at the black and white information you're being given and see the gray areas around it. Because when people say, I had a bad boss, tell me more about that. What does that mean? What specifically it means to have a bad boss? What makes them bad at their job?

Our next episode is Episode 60 with Jon Heyman. He's one of our favorite people in the employment law space and one of our favorite people on LinkedIn. We had a bunch of fun talking to him and actually did two episodes with him this year. You should listen to both. But this is our episode episode 60 you union some, you lose some.

It's hard to pronounce our own puns. We had a great conversation about unions, union busting and some of the drama that has happened at Chipotle in other places this year.

You can absolutely express to employees your view of what the kinds of unions are in general when they come in.

You just can't say you're going to fix it if they don't.

Join, correct? Or We're going to fire you or we're going to cut your wages or what Starbucks just did which is give a pay raise to all the nonunion stores and not give a pay raise to the stores that are organizing.

How the fuck did they not know? That was a terrible idea?

I'm not going to shit on other lawyers, but they're getting advice from their lawyers. In a corporation like Starbucks, a multibillion dollar international corporation is absolutely getting advice from their lawyers as to what they can and can't do. I wouldn't have given that advice, but the advice very well could be that, yes, this is illegal and you might get slapped down if you do this.

Our experience tells us that the impact might be that it might cut unionization rates at future stores by X percent. So it might it might be a risk because.

It gives it gives every employee the the what if they give us a pay raise and I'm in the union and I don't fucking get it, it's like it puts it right on the right.

And it's a signal for sure. And like I said earlier, I studied this when I was back when I was in college, like Walmart is the ultimate union dodger. They get away with stuff all the time because they're this like mega corporation. I don't know all the details exactly.

How they got away with this, but in the first world.

There have been very few successful organizing campaigns at Wal-Mart, period. And the ones that are they just bargain. They just bargain them like they just provide bargaining. They'll bargain for five years and just wait for the union to go away. They're like, we're just not going to give you a contract and they'll do it. Not so it looks like good faith and they'll just keep bargaining a bargain.

A bargain. A bargain. Never reached an agreement, and eventually the union just gives up and goes away.

Yeah, that's not a best practice, though. Next up, episode 68. This is why we can't have nice things remote work with Kelly Clarkson. Honestly, Colleen just keeps it absolutely freakin real. And he had a no B.S. approach to working remote, which I think we all appreciate, given the times and given the fact that remote work is just work.

Really. So take a listen to this episode. Clean gives a lot of tips in terms of how to do remote work well.

Do you have any data that says that we are not as productive or as profitable or I'm sorry, the last thing we're in the people's space. I should start with this. Were you assessing the culture and the engagement levels prior to the pandemic? Right. And are you able to assess those during the pandemic? And we even say hopefully someday the pandemic will be over.

Can you give yourself a little bit of time to assess those levels without making any changes to the policy? After we're able to get together more safely, we're starting to see people get together a lot more safely because you need this data to tell you what it is like. If there's no data, then why are you making the choice?

And I was it was funny I was listening to one of your episodes, and I do have to say I was a little stressed out. We did have to reschedule or actually have picked the wrong day or something. I did something messed up my plane. Yeah, the OG Dogecoin, the OG Corny episode was unbelievable to on an ordinary.

She was she was just, oh, in talking about unions and just talking about some of the challenges that have moved up. So shout out to Connie Chung. Connie, Connie Marie's.

Big obstacle.

She was throwing down some knowledge to go back and listen to that. But but like I would love to kind of ask her, like, what do you think? Is it is this a generational thing, mom, when no one, which I do not believe it is, a lot of people jump to that, but I actually don't believe that. Or is it a situation of H.R. and leadership?

Let's just say leadership, not just H.R., is in a situation of leadership just being too used to the way things used to be done.

I'm going to vote for that one.

I think there's definitely a lot of that. And I think what was one of the problems early on in the pandemic was that we just kind of like shifted to remote so quickly and like we were just doing everything like from an operations standpoint, like, okay, how are we going to get people Internet? How are we going to get their computers?

Like, I remember a scramble, like I went into my office and like ransacked the place and took like my chair, my ergonomic chair and like all my stuff, right? Like it was just like a free for all. And there wasn't enough thought. And maybe we'll get into this with, like, what you're, what you do, but there wasn't enough thought in how to transition.

Okay, how do we turn, like, what we had from, like, a culture perspective into like a remote experience? So like, companies that I think had a really strong culture before, there was like a huge loss that people felt as though something was taken and they were grieving the culture that they would have had in the office. Like, I'm thinking like tech, right?

Like the people that loved their office space versus like in other industries where like people maybe you weren't as like you know, there wasn't a strong as good of a culture office culture. Like they were originally pretty happy to move into this remote. So I don't know, I'd love to talk a little bit more about that. Just in terms of like now that we've been here for a while, if we're choosing to be remote and stay remote, like how do we make that?

How do we like basically like have the culture that we had in a remote world? Because there's just some things you can't do, right?

Yes and no. So I'm going to disagree with you, and that's what's great about this. All right, Richard, let's go back then. Yeah. So I want to be clear over here. I actually disagree with you. The comment that you made right there about I actually understood what you were saying, but I just want to, you know, redefine some of the words that we're kind of using just so that we're clear.

So from our experience organizations that had a great culture were very successful in the transition of going to remote. Now, let's all and this is very difficult. We don't use the word cult. We try not to use the word culture because, you know, you know what it means. Nobody knows for everyone. Nobody knows what it means. There's nobody knows.

No scholar years ago came out and said, this is what it is and we just move forward. It's become like this generic word that encompasses everything, right? So, Tyson, we use employee experience mostly, right? Actually remote experience. But what I feel like you're describing, though, is you're describing people who are missing the connections. Yes. They're not. Yeah. Culture is about so many things.

Right. How do you get the job the way what's important is the way people should around here. You know, there's a whole bunch of things that come up with culture. And I believe that's why it's so hard to find the combination of so many things. Right. So I believe what you're talking about is connections. Yeah. Like how do we maintain those personal connections?

Because we are a tribal species. I learned this from watching cartoons when my daughter went off the hedgehog like the hedgehog is like an animal that lives in isolation. I never knew that. So we're not that we are a tribal species, hence why we've always had tribes.

We crave connection.

Right. Right. So to me, it's not actually the companies who have a great culture. They have our biggest challenge. What remote work has done is expose closed companies with bad culture, bad practices, bad. Yeah. Like it's really exposed it, right? So I think that's a really, really big difference.

Yeah, I think that's a great point and a good, a good designation. I also think what's really interesting about like when everyone went remote and a lot of these poor cultures got called on their bullshit because people were like, Why the fuck am I doing this? Yeah, front of a screen is the other thing that people forget is and look one thing I'll step back and say is I actually don't believe and you may or may not agree with me here win, but like I don't believe everyone needs to be making these decisions about remote or in-office or all these things on these like grand policy levels, like I just called bullshit on that whole operation

I think to your earlier point, that's some like old school thinking, which is like this is this is exactly how this has to be done versus being like if it's not a problem with the existing team that you're working with, then don't make it a problem. Don't make it a problem. You don't make it a problem, right? Like we can be a little more flexible.

Next up, episode 72 real talk about resumes. But Dan from H.R., we did not hold back on this one. There were so many old school processes as it relates to applying the jobs, submitting resumes, etc., that Dan basically came in and just flipped on their head. He was extremely straightforward in the way that there he is, algorithms and computers read our resumes and then spit that back out to employers and basically shared the tips on how to make that process effective so that you actually get a job again.

This is no B.S. as usual. One of our favorite guest, Dan, from H.R., including cover letters anymore.

Oh, my God. Don't get me, Daniel, how do we feel about COVID? No, please.

We really want to get you started.

That's literally the point of this concern.

So I, I don't know if you saw, but I was featured in daily dot because one of my videos went viral, and it was about thank you notes, but in that video I spoke about thank you notes are the most useless element of the recruiting. The whole recruiting exchange aside from COVID rules, which are just as almost useless, there are very notable exceptions.

I think I helped a number of teachers translate their experience from going into education and turning into instructional designers or project managers in edtech. And using a cover letter is a great way to introduce yourself for a large scale career change or an industry change. But other than that, and you can probably test this if you read resumes, no one reads a cover letter.

It is all the exact same template. Everyone use the exact same format. They just change those four words. It is such and useless piece of administrative homework and what they say.

It's the same way I feel about those LinkedIn messages you can send when you apply to a job. Everyone just sends the same boilerplate message that I did yeah, I did it. I did a I did a video that also went quasi viral about that. That was like, don't send me that thing. Like, don't send me the boilerplate shit because I don't read it.

And all it tells me is that you click the button that everybody else clicks, not that you put any time into this like and cover letters of the opposite because people put time into them the first the first one, like the template.

First. And then after that, right after that, they just change. The seven does set in black in words just based on whatever.

They will is. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's funny because I wonder if you think there is like just to go back to a world where we were doing cover letters and people were taking them seriously and they were coming with a human who read them, with the human who read the same resume, like what was the real benefit of those?

Or where do you think the like core or intent of that was? And is there something to be kept from that prior, you know, prehistoric you know, I don't know what the word is like. It's almost like a habit, right? Like that was like a career habit that we had that everyone had to submit a cover letter. But like what it where was the good in that?

And is there anything to take from that?

I don't think there was, because I think what what the value that a cover letter brings is that it introduced you to a potential employer. So before the time they're even resumes people would write letters of interest to after they all want that and saying, hey, I saw your I saw your ad in the post 44 again on Friday or like a newspaper or handler, you know, all these like 30 and 40 1940 positions and you would send it, you know, just saying, hey, I'm interested, here's my experience, here's why I think I could bring value to you I have some experience and there's some experience in this and that started to then work into the

resume and then the resume and cover letter became the thing to do to get the cover letter as letter of introduction. And then your resume. All of that changed with like the digital transformation of recruiting and job boards like Monster and CareerBuilder, where all of a sudden everyone could apply to jobs and all of a sudden, especially like starting 2005 to 2006, every new generation just dumped so many more people into the workforce.

So now instead of getting potentially 25 applicants where someone could reasonably read every cover letter and be charmed, now you had four to 500 applicants and now you're not sending it to the hiring and the hiring manager anymore. Now you're sending it to a recruiter, and now there's LinkedIn. It gives you the opportunity to talk about who you are and what you like and the things that you've done so that at this point the information you're going to get on a cover letter you can easily find by reading the resume and reading it.

So why this extra piece of homework? Especially because most recruiters just get them.

Okay, I'm going to be devil's advocate here for a second. Do it because I'm finding less and less value out of like when I'm like looking at resumes. I am so bored I can't even like read one sentence of them. I'm like, everybody's the exact same. Everybody is the same. University degree, everybody is the same. And experienced what I find would be valuable use of the cover letter is when I have someone and again, like whether this is a cover letter or not, but what I want this person to do is say, this is why I'm interested in you as a company.

This is why I'm interested in the company. This is why I'm interested in this specific role. I can look at their resume that's literally a cookie cutter of every other single resume and be like, Okay, yeah, they've got like the bare bones, whatever. But like, if someone can say to me like, this is why I'm right for your company, this is why I'm right for this role specifically, I do see value in that.

Like, again, if it's done right and if that's like the request, I think that there are some companies that put in their little ads that like, you should like write a letter of interest or like why you're interested in coming, that sort of thing. I think that if they are read and like reflected upon, I think that that can really be interesting.

Like, I still love the question, why do you want to work here now? The answer is not because of the culture. That's not the answer. But there are really a.


More answers that can, you know, really indicate whether or not you're going to work out here or not.

So interesting. Interesting points. I will say I get it to a degree and it's funny because I had the side of wanting to make sure that I have an engaged workforce and people that believe in the company mission because that tends to be more productive and they tend to be more engaged, especially if you're rewarded at the other side.

I was just a candidate and I just went through that whole candidate experience. I could easily agree with you if working for your company was interesting.

And last but not least, probably one of my favorite episodes of the year was our episode on the Abercrombie and Fitch documentary called Abercrombie and Figure Your Shit Out. It was episode 50 Tyson and I had a great time watching the documentary, talking about the documentary. The documentary was a little bit of a hot mess, which you'll discover in the episode if you have not already, but it was really fun, and we're actually hoping and planning to do more documentary club episodes in 20, 23.

So thanks for checking it out.

What are you trying to tell me how that works? Yeah, yeah. No and it was always such a big deal to you if someone went to like Abercrombie in the States to like get a picture with one of the models that was standing at the front of the store. Yeah, that was, it's just, it's so strange. I just remember.

Being so insecure in high school and being like, I have to wear Aeropostale because I can't afford Abercrombie and Fitch. My mom won't let me shop there. And just being like, I wish I knew that it was so good. It was. That was like the poor man's Abercrombie and Fitch.

I remember because I got it when I was in the States, and I thought it was so cool because I came back with, like, Aeropostale and I'm like, yeah, like, you can't get this in Ottawa. I know. Or, like, or arrow.

00:43:45:12 - 00:44:01:12


Had its moment, but it was like a light post and a moment. Anyway, the one other thing I took away from this documentary that I thought was, again, I wish they had just not done the Jeffrey Epstein and the gay guy thing. And like, I wish they had just sort of focused on this again because we're also nerds about this stuff.

But like, they also skipped over. They skipped over and they didn't interview they didn't show a lot of his interview, which was kind of a bummer. But I think I know why, which is they skip over that. They bring in this chief diversity officer who are basically appears to get fucking steamrolled the whole time. Like I don't remember his testimony or his like interview as well as some of the other parts of the documentary.

And I didn't take a lot of notes, but like they kind of interview him. He's kind of the guy they bring in. He clearly tries to do his best. But then there's some examples where they ask him things about like, how did you feel when they did this? And he's like, I felt how you think I felt about that, but I can't comment.

And you're like, Wait, wait a minute.

Yeah. So I have thoughts on this.

Yes, please. But I think this was like the exact moment where it's like, this is a real life example of someone trying to bring in a diversity officer after the problem is fucking fully baked and it having absolutely no, no impact. So because that person didn't try, but because it's just like.

That's like a strategy. It's like the signaling strategy so that's disappointing. But yeah, well, that's exactly it. But that's, that's the exact sort of thing that companies do after they get in trouble and after like something's like brought out to the forefront they're like, oh, look at us. We just hired this black chief diversity officer, like, look how good we're doing.

And they made like a little like policy book or something. I feel like this person has no budget.

This person has initiatives, this person has no team.

He did report to the CEO, though, which I thought was like, all right, like optics. Okay. It's good optics for sure. Again, like, it's all it's all very or.

The CEO was like, yeah, well, this guy's good report to me so I can keep it real close.

Yeah. And I just, like, felt as though that was like textbook like what companies do, like, after they get their hands slapped and they just need to do something that, like, signals that they're doing something better. So, like, I.

Just was so glad that they put it on screen and it was like, this is the guy they hired, and you're like, this poor fucking dude.

Like, right?

Not right. You know, he's an adult. He knows what he got to do, but like, the chief diversity officer, but not really is just I just called bullshit on that whole tech that.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, that's, that's why it's like very much just like signaling that it's not actually, like, effective, but. Okay, I want to go back. What was that thing? They had this, like, book. Oh, yeah. That this is what good looking is like. They actually had, like, a book that, like, said, it's like their first book.

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I thought that that was like, very interesting. And then, like, basically, like, the managers were rated not based on sales. So anyone who works in retail knows how like heavy it is on sales and like numbers and like if you're not meeting your sales, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but it was based on like the attractiveness of your staff versus like actual sales and like they kind of made a joke about how when you went in there, like the sales associates like were like that helped support.

So yeah.

They like remember those are, you know.

I've actually trained them that way because they wanted it to be like an exclusive.

Were too cool.

Right? Which is like if I now interact with a person in a retail setting and they're like that, I'm like, yeah, I just don't need to shop here. Like, I don't need any part of this data be friction for me. I'm trying to buy shit from you.


And also, like, don't work in retail if you don't like people, but.

Right. I've heard that before, but like and even like makes like the comment about how like parents hated the stores. Like, I remember like my dad would always like because I'd go to the States with my dad. Like, he'd always like wait outside because it's so dark and loud and he's like, I'm not going in there.

There's like a fucking half naked dude on the entrance. So your dad's like, I'm all set for.

And actually naked dude. Like, they're, they're like back in.

I don't know if in the Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania, we had the live models all the time.

No, only certain ones. I actually yeah. I feel like, like people when they went to, like, New York City, they would. Yeah. Yeah. They never had them in, like, friggin Syracuse where like I would go. Yeah.

I distinctly remember the smells of those colognes though, like obsessed Sibley. I remember.

Those. So, okay, this is really gross.

Because it was like in high school, I either dated a guy that were Abercrombie and Fitch Polo Sport or Curve. Like, I remember the smell of that, that cologne like nobody.

So I actually love the smell of Abercrombie. I'm not like really big into like perfumes or fragrance anymore, but I love it. And like, when I was younger, like, when you buy the clothes and you took them home, they would, like, smell like the cologne. Yeah. And I would like delay wash thing because like, you couldn't get it here.

So I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I still, like, smell like Abercrombie and like, I was away watching it because, like, I wanted to be like a.

14 year old girl, and everybody's, like, noticing you just, like, hormones right now. Wash your fucking clothes.

Like, obviously, within reason, but I remember, like, I wouldn't wash it, like, before I wore it. Like, I see the smell on it. I love that. Like, so gross.

That's so funny. Yeah, I just. I I'm glad someone made this documentary because I think the point of good documentaries is to get people talking about this shit and to end to bring, like, new lenses to life about these things. And I was glad that they interviewed some recruiters. I was glad they talked specifically about the labor practices.

I was a little pissed they didn't double click on, like, Okay, but what is the actual process to get a job here? All right, that's a wrap. Tyson. That's our whole year.

Well, that's not really our whole year, but it's got some of our highlights.

But they were some highlights there.

Yeah, there are a lot of other great episodes. So if everyone is new joining, I definitely would encourage you to go listen to the whole plethora of people problems.

Now because there's some goodies. There's some goodies. We push them buttons this year for sure. And really excited to do it again with you next year.

Can't wait.

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