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082 - So You’re Sleeping with a Coworker

Updated: Mar 7, 2023

We've all done it.. or at least Alexa has! This week we explore the juicy and taboo topic of office romances. The duo is joined by Jon Hyman – their favorite employment lawyer – for extra laughs and his solid legal POV to review the details of HR's stickier situations. Whether the romance leads to marriage or becomes hot gos, navigating the office dating pool has its own set of rules. Get some 'based on real-life' advice on sh*tting where you eat, how to handle a colleague's advances, and some things to be careful of when you're bumping uglies with a coworker. This is real life. Don't miss out!


Trigger Warning: adult content, violence




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John Hyman on Instagram @jonhyman and LinkedIn at Jonathan Hyman


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Alexa Baggio on Instagram, Tiktok, and LinkedIn

Tyson Mackenzie on Instagram at @hr.shook



Tyson/Alexa

Tyson takes up. What's the craziest shit that's happened to you recently? What's going down? It's going down in Canada. Other than the fact that I literally am Snowden's my house right now. Like there's at least three feet of snow outside my front door and it's like, nice. At this point, I'm just going to wait till things defrost until I leave.


Tyson/Alexa

Isn't that why you live in Canada, though? Like, I feel like you have to live there knowing like four months of the year, you're just probably not going to have to leave your house. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I've got some of the chance, some like winter activities to really enjoy Canada, You've got to be into the winter activities.


Tyson/Alexa

So, like, I've been a skier, but. Yeah. Skiing's yours? Yeah. It's like riding a bike. Loves you. Yeah. Yeah, I snowboard, but I keep telling myself I got to go back into skiing because when you get older, snowboarding is not actually that fun because everyone else skis. So it's like, Yeah, I never did this snowboarding thing. I've always been like a very, like, committed skier and I just, you know, as you get older, things like I've grown out of all my equipment, so it's just like the having to like, get all of the fucking investment.


Tyson/Alexa

It was not cheap, but just remember, like you're going to have that shit for like a decade at least, like 100%. It's just, it's just wild. Because when I had all my gear, it was like super cool and like, yeah, advanced. But now, like, I've seen the skis and I'm like, Shit, those are like you. I would be the technology super fucking different.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally. My first snowboard, which I just replaced a few years ago, was like a wood core 5150 board. Like they haven't made that that brand in, like, I've had it since I was 14, but I love that thing. I refused to throw it out because I'm like, this thing still shreds. I love this. Yeah, you got to, you got to replace the gear every once in a while.


Tyson/Alexa

But you could get into snowshoeing, you could get into cross-country skiing, which sounds really boring, but I actually kind of enjoy. Yeah, I have trails in my, like, literally my best friend's cross-country skiing trail. And the best part about cross-country skiing is like you. I'm sure they have it there. They have trails is you can go to like find the trails where they have like little huts and they have like mulled wine and like a little fireplace and like a little you're like, we don't have any of that.


Tyson/Alexa

We don't have any of that. It's pretty. Make one. Make yourself a little winter tree house. And I used to go drink mulled wine with your husband, you know? Yeah. You know what? They they might have that on the ice. Like, we also have like, avid ice fishing. So yeah, I live on. So like, all the, all the people, that's what I think of what I think of Canada's hockey and ice fishing.


Tyson/Alexa

If you saw like you've never actually seen where I live, like I live in that quintessential Canadian like landscape. It's, it's hilarious. Yeah, it's really quite funny. I love that you're a caricature of a Canadian. I truly am. That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. All right. Anything else? What else is? All right, You got to get into the winter sports.


Tyson/Alexa

I encourage you and challenge you by the next time we record in a few days to attempt a winter sport out of your home away and leave the house and leave your house. I went and got the mail. Okay, here's another funny thing. My mail comes to me at the end of my my driveway. Like it's like in a mailbox where they, like, put up the flags, how normal people get their mail.


Tyson/Alexa

Yes. Really? You know, your mail works. We don't do that. So in Canada, usually you have big mail boxes and everybody goes to like the mailbox and you have like a little cubby with a key. So I think that just depends on like big development. No. Yeah. I grew up in a house with like a mailbox there. The mailbox they Pitsligo Exactly.


Tyson/Alexa

So anyways, I went out and I got the mail. That was my winter activity for this week and I was like, Oh shit, it's cold. And I just ran back inside. So that's about it. Do you do exercise indoors? Like, do you do, do you like if you literally don't leave the house, what do you do? Are you like a Peloton girl or something?


Tyson/Alexa

Absolutely not. But I am a major cult follower of the class right here. And to me, so by one that should educate me. What the fuck is that? Okay, if you haven't done it, you need to do it Every class. By what? The class by turn to me. It's like the name of the creator and it's. It's a little woo woo.


Tyson/Alexa

You know me. I love Krystal. Oh, you love the woo you are time I Well, I'm team woo woo woo. But I swear to God it keeps you completely sane. Like, basically the idea behind it is that you do a lot of repetitive movement and you get your body uncomfortable to the point where your mind becomes uncomfortable and you have to just like work through that.


Tyson/Alexa

So it's like really emotional and it sounds like how I feel about hot yoga. A lot of shit comes up, but it's it's really good and there's a lot of like jumping around and just like, shaking and just like getting all of the wiggles out for you and your mind, which I need because I got a lot of wiggles up in my mouth.


Tyson/Alexa

All right, You'll have to send me the shit. I'll have to. I'll have to. I have to try it. Report back 100%. And so and I don't leave my house, so I'm winning all around. All right? I like it. All right, So we got to get moving. We got to get you moving in Canada. I'm still down here in Mexico writing.


Tyson/Alexa

What is that that you're writing? I see. I opened LinkedIn this morning and I see you on some sort of what is this? ATV? Is ATV, which is or it Mexico. It's got a Quatro motor, which is basically a motorcycle that's easier to ride with four wheels. They're so fucking fun and I want one so badly. But I also want a motorcycle and I want lots of things that don't make any sense for my lifestyle right now.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, that was super fun. It's just, you know, it's easy when you're, like, alone to just. Well. Well, I should. Shouldn't. That's easy, cause it's not easy. It's actually hard to book tours and do some of that shit when you're solo, because all of that stuff is built for groups. And I'm, you know, I'm in Puerto Vallarta, which is like a big tourist trap here in Mexico.


Tyson/Alexa

And actually the coolest parts of this city are out of the city center, like the tourist zone. If you're not a tourist person, which I'm not really, I kind of scoff at a lot of that stuff because you have to get out of the city. Yeah, well, it's just like, I'm not going to get off a cruise ship and go to, like, the restaurant that the tour guide at the pier, like, recommended.


Tyson/Alexa

To me, that's like overpriced for fat Americans, which is 80% of the tourist here to be. Exactly. So you got to get out of the city a bit. And so the easiest way to do that is to like either do runs or book tours, basically just because it's a way for like a local tour guide to show you shit you wouldn't see on your own or couldn't find on your own.


Tyson/Alexa

And sometimes it's hard to do when you're solo. But yeah, I took a ATV tour up the mountains. Puerto Vallarta sits on the San Andreas Fault, which is really cool. So if you get out of the little tour zone, it's actually kind of cool and fun. And, you know, they give you you can eat tequila, eat tequila, drink tequila and do all that stuff if you want to.


Tyson/Alexa

So that's fun. I'm always doing random shit like that. Just try to explore new things, get out of my comfort zone. But I got mostly out of my comfort zone recently because I got violently ill earlier this week, which never happens to me. Like I don't get sick, knock on wood, but like I just am one of those people, like maybe once every seven years.


Tyson/Alexa

But my body did a control all delete on me this week. Chills, fever, like. And the funniest thing is so I I'll tell this story only because it's a lead into our conversation for the episode which is that, you know, I'm single and I'm traveling solo. So the good news about that is it opens you up for all kinds of like, let's see where this goes.


Tyson/Alexa

The bad news about that is that sometimes it can be wildly uncomfortable if you don't manage the situation correctly. But so I had gone for a run one evening after work. I try to my friends, everyone knows I'm in a windowless apartment here because I fucked up and didn't do my Airbnb research very well for this particular apartment.


Tyson/Alexa

And I, you know, so each night I try to get out to at least see the sunset because I can't see the fucking sunrise and there's no windows in my apartment, which is great for working, terrible for general mental health. So I try to get out and see a sunset. This particular day I needed to work out, so I went for a run and my eyes kind of suck at night.


Tyson/Alexa

So I saw this gentleman sitting on the beach and I will be very obvious, like my my girlfriends always joke. They're like, I meet real dudes IRL than most people they know. But it's because, like, I'll be very obvious if I'm interested what you have to do. So anyway, I'm like trying to figure out if this guy's cute, but I can't see him very well.


Tyson/Alexa

So I'm like googling this guy, blah, blah, blah. And I'm, you know, I'm on a run and I'm British and I'm like, all right, You know, he's he's reading a book at sunset on the beach. Like, these are all positive things as a prospect. You know, you read your ad, you're out on the beach at sunset, you're alone.


Tyson/Alexa

There's no one with you at the sunset. That usually means you're single. So I'm, you know, I'm scoping it out and nothing happens. Like, I go, I got to go back to work, whatever. And it's dark and I can't see shit. And I'm like, I can't tell you, but whatever. I'll come investigate tomorrow. I'm going to go lay on the beach on the weekend.


Tyson/Alexa

So I go investigate. I go back. He happens to come back the next day. I still can't see if he's very cute from far away because my sunglasses aren't very well polarized. Whatever. Long story short, he makes his way. You gets displaced by a volleyball game and he winds up next to me. Sadly, he's not. He's not as cute as I had hoped, but he's a very nice guy.


Tyson/Alexa

And we go get food. So we decided, okay, let's go. You know, I've been intermittent fasting for 24 hours. I'm starving. So I'm like, Let's go get some food. So we go to a seafood place and not thinking anything of the place was really good. It was delicious. But one of the things that we had is a raw shrimp tostada.


Tyson/Alexa

No. So I didn't think anything of it. I felt fine. The meal was delicious, you know, we parted our ways. I was like, really nice to meet you. Not romantically interested, but always nice to make a friend who's an interesting dude actually works in IO, which is fucking weird. And so then 36, literally exactly like 30 hours from that encounter with the raw shrimp, I was like, Oh, my fucking deathbed, like, raw shrimp chill.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, I didn't even think because, like, we don't eat raw shrimp in the U.S. and I didn't think anything of it. I was like, Oh, this is like, it was like, too far removed in my brain to have been from that meal, like food poisoning. I feel like you just get the next day. Do not eat raw shrimp, slow release poison.


Tyson/Alexa

It was it was fucking brutal, but. Oh, God. Yeah, well, you seem to be better now, so my immune system needed like a control all delete and it fucking got one. Yeah. So sometimes your body will really tell you when it's time to like you're not in the driver's seat right now, champ. I got this one. So. Yeah.


Tyson/Alexa

So in my romantic pursuits, I got violently ill. And now we're going to talk about sleeping with coworkers. What a good transition. Really quickly. Before that, though, I do want to make sure that we mention if people haven't noticed. But how could you not notice like our dope glow up? I'm very proud of our of our new branding, our new look.


Tyson/Alexa

Our team did a great job For those of you who follow us on socials or receive our weekly newsletter, thank you. First and foremost, been awesome to watch that grow. And we did get a little facelift around here, so if you haven't seen it, check it out at people problems Today.com we very proud of our new look and we're also launch it launching excuse me something for our listeners and our peeps as we call you guys these days because you call yourselves that is that now are a lot of the resources that were available only to our private Pops community, which you can still join that's not going anywhere, are available on said website for


Tyson/Alexa

you to purchase or download. So all kinds of cool resources that other people up some h.r professionals have made or contributed to or shared with us all kinds of like fun and cool resources like employee handbooks and welcome guides and stuff. That's really helpful. So, yeah, i'm proud of our new look. Tysons. We look, we look sexy. We look what?


Tyson/Alexa

Nice of it. We've got a glow up so people can use the code people problems for 20%, 20% off their first purchase. And we want to hear what you think. So let us know if you like our glow up and then yeah, that's it. Anything else, Tyson, before I. Before we get John in here. Yeah, you know what?


Tyson/Alexa

I'm just so excited to get John in here, so let's look for it. All right, great. John in here. John is as people now back at one of our favorite, you're basically just like our lawyer. You're just Yeah, you're just part of the family at this point, John. But John Heiman is a partner at Wickens Hauser Panza. He is a lawyer for employers and Craft breweries, which is my favorite odd professional combination master of workplace schadenfreude at Blogger Dead Husband, Failed game show contestant and our favorite LinkedIn lawyer.


Tyson/Alexa

Welcome back. Nice to have you here. Very excited to talk about some taboo topics.


Jon

I'm so excited to be back. I can I tell you how excited I was when I listened to your year end wrap up and heard that I made the cut that like total, that made my week. It made my month. I was like, Yes, So.


Tyson/Alexa

I love.


Jon

That. So it's like to be back.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, well, we're happy to have you back. It's nice to have you as a staple. And you know, we know you can't talk about sex without a lawyer around. So.


Jon

Yeah, we got to see, you know, we need some NDAs, we got to sign some staff. Oh, yeah.


Tyson/Alexa

So I can't wait. I can't wait. Before we jump into the. How are you, John? Is everything good on everything good on your end?


Jon

Everything is going good. Everything's going well.


Tyson/Alexa

Anything new or exciting? Very nervous.


Jon

I'm coaching my daughter's high school mock trial team and who? Nice. And they compete tomorrow, so I'm nervous. I'm nervous for them.


Tyson/Alexa

Because what do they. What do they win?


Jon

Well, they win the right to move on to the next round of the competition is what they win. So they're minus the trials. It's it's it is it involves exploding pop rocks, candy, that someone put in eggs at a high school fundraising breakfast. And whether the prime suspect should have been read her Miranda rights when she's being questioned by the school resource officer about whether she was the one where he was the one who put said Pop Rocks in the eggs.


Tyson/Alexa

Is this a real scenario?


Jon

I'm not sure. I'm I'm not I'm not sure. Yeah. That they it's yeah.


Tyson/Alexa

In eggs. Yeah. It's disgusting.


Jon

Yeah. So yeah so.


Tyson/Alexa

What's the crime. What's what's the crime to tainting the like I.


Jon

Guess like, like in a like an assault. Right. Like you put the.


Tyson/Alexa

Assault on my taste buds.


Jon

All sorts are one, one of the key witnesses is and actually the witness that my daughter is playing is the suspect's prime academic rival. And her grandmother actually had her dentures shattered by the pop rocks when she was actually bit into the eggs at the breakfast.


Tyson/Alexa

Is very player. I don't I don't I was I did speech and debate in high school. Not very not very well and not for very long because I was like, oh, man, I'm already insecure about not being popular. This is not helping me. And I just have to read sports to play. But I don't remember. I mean, the speech debate, you just like I remember you recite things, there's a little bit of debate depending on if you got into that side of things.


Tyson/Alexa

But I don't remember things being like this involved no story.


Jon

It's a lot like there is. I mean, they call witnesses and they make objections and it's like a whole real trial is this is extracurricular? Yeah, it's extra curricular. But my kids my kids go to a like a small, independent private school that does not have a football team because they're too small. And mock trial is like the football the football team.


Jon

It's like the football team at the school. The school takes it super seriously. So.


Tyson/Alexa

Wow.


Jon

You're so I'm a little nervous for how my kids are going to.


Tyson/Alexa

Do.


Jon

Tomorrow.


Tyson/Alexa

You have pre-game jitters. That's how I have.


Jon

A little pregame jitters for my for my team.


Tyson/Alexa

So do you have aspirations for this daughter to also be a lawyer?


Jon

She does not want to be a lawyer. I'm not.


Tyson/Alexa

Why is that?


Jon

Sure. I want her to be a lawyer. I can. I could probably talk her out of it. No, she. She wants to be a schoolteacher.


Tyson/Alexa

All right, cool. I'm never going to knock.


Jon

That now, so. Yeah, Yeah.


Tyson/Alexa

All right, All right.


Jon

She just does. She just does it cause it's fun.


Tyson/Alexa

So I actually think being a lawyer be kind of fun, but.


Jon

Anyway, it is not. It is not a bad way to make a living. And I get to come and talk about sex with you also.


Tyson/Alexa

Exactly. Exactly.


Jon

I mean, i could.


Tyson/Alexa

Be on an h.r. Podcast. Yes. All right, so let's let's i mean, let's let's start with what we are talking about today, which is we are talking about office romances and we are talking about office romances because this shit happens all the fucking time. And while it may be in theory, quote unquote taboo, it's like I forget what the statistic is, but it's like 30 or 40% of marriages are started at the office, like created 50% of them failed.


Tyson/Alexa

But that's for another episode like this shit happens all the time. Coworkers I used to work with at my very first job out of college who started dating in the office. They sat right next to me, Pujan and. And they are happily married, I think, with kids now. From that encounter. I also had colleagues that good friends of mine still from another job who had an office, romance, customer success and sales.


Tyson/Alexa

You know, I believe a lot of this I'm being like in sales in my twenties in New York. But you know, you put a bunch of 20 somethings together in an office and shit's going to go down. But yeah, this happens a lot. So like I think and Tyson has told a few great stories which we'll rehash on this about like how love gets intermixed in the office.


Tyson/Alexa

Like this just happens.


Jon

So I'm like, how much time, how much time do we spend at work? I mean, exactly.


Tyson/Alexa

Supposed to meet your boss? Yeah.


Jon

Where where.


Tyson/Alexa

The fuck? It's like, increasingly hard to meet people. The irony of.


Jon

The modern age, unless you're going to, like, tinder it. Like, where else are you going to meet people? Because you're at work. So much.


Tyson/Alexa

So don't get me started on the apps. Yeah, Yeah, it's. You meet people, I work, you meet people through, like, church, but nobody goes anymore. You meet people through the gym. If you go and don't work out at home, you meet people through, like, social, like, you know, I don't know, like extra adult extracurriculars. So, like, a lot of those are usually with people, you.


Jon

Know, that's how I was at a bar. Yeah, it's like a cult after like a coed football league. We met, like, at the bar after school.


Tyson/Alexa

So retro, even, like. Like I meetings party. And I Did you. Yeah. So I remember I was my long term ex who I adore, but we were together for like seven years. We met at the house party and people used to always think that was like a euphemism for Tinder. And I'm like, No, no, we we actually met at a fucking house.


Tyson/Alexa

Party like that still happens. Crazy. I know, but yeah, man, you're at work all day and like. Or you meet people, like through friends or through works or, you know, as I'm learning in my mid thirties, back, back on the market, you, you and the one other person that are single at a wedding sometimes that works out most of the time it doesn't.


Tyson/Alexa

But yeah, you're off to random singletons on the beach. Yeah. Yeah. I actually what I think is probably a more interesting topic is like what are the number of affairs that are started at work? But we won't go down that rabbit hole either.


Jon

Up a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. The answer is a lot. Which a.


Tyson/Alexa

Disproportionate amount you might guess, which.


Jon

Is usually like when I get involved. So.


Tyson/Alexa

And me too. Me too. Yeah. All right, well, let's get into that. So, John, what's the craziest office romance situation you've been involved in? Either personally or, like, had to step in professionally.


Jon

Man.


Tyson/Alexa

I mean, we will see state that I believe you are married and love your wife. Just like. Yeah, none of this.


Jon

We're not talking about me, right? Personally.


Tyson/Alexa

Right?


Jon

I mean, I've had I mean, I had a I had a CEO of a company I represented who was e-mailing around pictures of himself with women he was sleeping with. That's probably that's probably the craziest.


Tyson/Alexa

Wait, like why? And like, just like, oh, wait a minute.


Jon

Subordinate employees.


Tyson/Alexa

So wait a minute. He was sleeping with women in the office. Yeah, like taking pictures of it. Like him with his arm around her or like him in her in explicit photos or.


Jon

Explicit photos in a hot tub.


Tyson/Alexa

Oh, wow. Okay. All right. Who was showing this to.


Jon

People at work? Let me let me close the loop on the story. So the company got sued by one of the people that he was sending these pictures to. And I had to go to Chicago for this guy's deputies for depositions in this case. And so the CEO finishes getting deposed and it went as horribly as you would imagine it would have gone given the circumstances under which he was being deposed.


Jon

And so we walk out. So we walk out of the we walk out of the building that this law firm was in. And waiting outside of this building is like a stretch Lincoln Town car and the window rolls down and my client, the CEO, walks over and he has this conversation with this roll down window in this dark as night tinted Lincoln Town car.


Jon

And he comes back over and goes, okay, we got to go to a meeting. Before I before we were going to go to dinner, we got to I got to take this meeting. Before we go to dinner, we're going to follow this town car and like my Spidey senses, going nuts, right? So we followed this town car into, like, the bowels of the Meatpacking District in Chicago.


Jon

And in the middle of all these meatpacking plants, there is this bar that looks like it was lifted off the set of The Sopranos. And there's a guy outside. I'm not I swear to God, this all happened. There's a guy outside like 40 or £50 in a velour tracksuit, parking car. There's no one else there. Handles. Yeah. So so he he takes the keys, he parks our car, and I look at my client and I'm like, All right, so here's the deal.


Jon

I go, There is no attorney client privilege here because we're not there's no attorney client relationship here. You're talking business. Nothing is privileged. And so if I if we go into this bar and I end up on an FBI wiretap, I am not going to claim attorney client privilege for anything that's talked about while you're in this bar with this guy.


Jon

So just be warned, whatever you say. I don't I don't have your ass here. And we make a long story short, we ended up meeting the guy was like the head of the Chicago mob, and he was the the guy that you had to do business with. This is a trucking company. If you wanted your trucks to park, it did take goods in and out of the depots in Chicago.


Jon

You needed to make deals with this guy. Yeah. So, yeah. And he's like, he's yeah, he's, he's like, yeah, we're cross the street is the I was the meat hook. I showed your client where he where they'd find him if he ever fucked me over in business that was.


Tyson/Alexa

Wow we're so we are, We are.


Jon

We are way afield from harassment right now. But it's such a story I felt the need to share.


Tyson/Alexa

It's a great story. The same guy that was in the pictures. That was my.


Jon

Guy. Same guy.


Tyson/Alexa

So the guy who goes to the Mafioso Don in the velour tracksuit is the same guy sending photos to his subordinates, yells his illicit affairs. Another coworker?


Jon

Yes.


Tyson/Alexa

Okay. Who does that? Now you are into you are up to no good. Okay. If you are an individual who's up to no good, stop putting yourself out there like that. It's like The Real Housewives did up to no good. And then they go on. The Real Housewives don't do that.


Jon

Yeah, I'm not going to say he had the best judgment. Really? Yeah. You go. Is it the company that the company had? The company fired him a couple of years later and we ended up in litigation.


Tyson/Alexa

Oh, yeah.


Jon

A couple of years. But we ended up in litigation with him over like, his stock and like there were allegations that he would keep Oh, my God. He would like, keep an eight ball of cocaine, like up in the ceiling tiles above his desk in it.


Tyson/Alexa

It was really obvious as a whole.


Jon

Another it was a but it was a freaking shit joke. But it started with him. It's about pictures. Okay. So with. With a subordinate in a hut.


Tyson/Alexa

Okay, wait a minute. Before we go down the crazy fucking shit hole, wrap the shit show rabbit hole. That is all the fucked up stuff that happens around office romances. I want to start with like the banal, like you have a crush on the guy that you work with and like, you might start dating because what I feel like.


Tyson/Alexa

And then we'll get into all the dark. The darker side of this. Like first and foremost, just to be clear, there's no legal rule that says you cannot sleep with a coworker, right? So all of this is bound by, if it exists, a code of conduct on the company level, right?


Jon

Yeah, that that's okay. I mean, the only and it's not even a rule, but the only, if you want to talk about like legalities, like the legal do's and don'ts, like bosses sleeping with subordinates was not illegal or unlawful. Just because I.


Tyson/Alexa

Believe around just just.


Jon

Because of the power dynamic and the rest, the risk that goes along with the power dynamic is just a terrible idea. But coworkers or even some different levels on that on the org chart, but with no reporting relationship it's it's there's no there's nothing wrong with it.


Tyson/Alexa

Inherent right like there shouldn't be right Right. You're an adult. You can do what you want.


Jon

Right But but but but but there's plenty of people out there that will tell you we don't want that coming into the workplace at all, which is just which is just ridiculous.


Tyson/Alexa

Which is ridiculous because going to fucking happen, right? Yeah.


Jon

So why like, why why try and regulate? Something's going to happen anyway. It makes no sense.


Tyson/Alexa

Well, I. Oh, God, this is such a now that we're in this, I'm like, Oh, man, we might need two parts for this class. So I think because a lot of people, I mean, people not to like terrible generalization, blanket statement, people are fucking crazy in relationships and like I get that an employers like don't bring that shit to the office, right.


Tyson/Alexa

Like like don't bring your whole self.


Jon

Yeah. Like, right. We don't like we don't need where we don't want to see the two of you like making out by the copier or walk into a conference room and find something or the that or the shit that could happen when the relationship goes south. And now you're still working together and you just can't handle more. Still working with someone that you that you used to sleep with.


Jon

Right.


Tyson/Alexa

Right, right. Which that's where I come. And that's, that's where I've gotten all that is. I think from all of my experiences in this space, it's, it's because of that. It's that awkward thing that happens afterwards. Afterwards. Okay. So, so before we go to afterwards, so let's talk really quickly about disclosure. So when so like, okay, so for example, I used to sleep with a colleague.


Tyson/Alexa

I'm saying that feeling like maybe I've done it more than once, but I can think of one and be like a friend. I thought very highly of him. Then it was more of like a 20 something hook up. We never really, like, dated or any.


Jon

Way to talk about why you can only recall one, but you think maybe there's other things that go beyond the scope of their.


Tyson/Alexa

I mean, you can try to unpack that. John. I don't. I don't know what I'm saying. Yeah, exactly. You guess what's happened? No one has cracked that much yet, but no. Yeah, I think I think only one those like a like kind of a direct colleague, like same team, like we both were in sales. Like then again, the whole fucking, the whole half.


Tyson/Alexa

The company was sleeping with each other because we were all 20 somethings. But at what point and, you know, again, I've been reprimanded by bosses for like, you know, hooking up with people at events or whatever, thinking that I hooked up with someone, which is also a different thing. But when let's talk about disclosure, when do you when do you think that you should disclose these things?


Tyson/Alexa

Because I'm sort of of the opinion that, like if I can keep my shit together and you don't like as my employer or place of employment or direct boss like you don't, you're none the wiser that I do not need to make you wiser.


Jon

I would I would.


Tyson/Alexa

Cover my it doesn't cover my ass.


Jon

I would tend to agree with that. I think disclosure becomes necessary when there is the disparity in power dynamic. When you have to worry about someone using the relationship, you shouldn't write inappropriately for an inappropriate purpose or the potential of that, or you want to hedge against the potential of that. You need to make sure either you need to remove that possibility by transferring someone or something, or you just need to make sure everyone's on the same page with how this how this is going to play out in the workplace.


Jon

But where there's a risk of something because of a power dynamic issue, I think that's where disclosure becomes necessary. But to the workers that I feel.


Tyson/Alexa

Like people never realize that there's a probably a fucked up power dynamic until it's like too late. And then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, I just want to let you know that I slept with the other account executive and now he's stealing my accounts. You know, It's like, Fuck. I feel like though, from a policy perspective, like how I've seen it played out, it's like if you have any sort of like responsibility of decision making to the other person.


Tyson/Alexa

So even as h.R. If my husband works for my company, I would have to disclose that because of, like, the access to information that I would have. Yeah. So, and the potential of me being involved in like decision making of, like promotion and compensation and things like that. So any sort of like decision making power as well is also taken into consideration.


Tyson/Alexa

But other than that, like you said, like colleague to colleague, like you wouldn't necessarily disclose it. But then there's also like the people side of things which becomes like, hey, did you know?


Jon

Well, that's the.


Tyson/Alexa

Office for you.


Jon

There. That's the idea. So it's not.


Tyson/Alexa

The same thing, but it's like, you know, I have a story like, did you notice it? Like Alexa and Joe Schmuck have been going for lunch every single day. Joe Schmucks and my people are people, too.


Jon

Yeah, We're coming together every morning, right? Yep. Yeah.


Tyson/Alexa

That's always how people find out. Is always how people find out is they're always taking, like, convenient coffee breaks at the same time for they're always showing up at the office like one right behind the other. And it's like, guys, everyone knows that the work is happening here. Everyone always, they give away. Always they give away money.


Jon

So I mean, but that's not a that's I don't think that responsibility. I don't think that's a disclosure responsibility on a couple that is a folks, let's keep a professional conversation with the employees that are gossiping about, you know, Joe and Jill, right?


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah. Yeah. And I would say I didn't think of this before, though. I will say if you're in h.r. And you start dating someone that works at the company, that's probably, like, almost always a disclosure situation. It is. It is in my in my experience, it has been. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's so that sucks because it's like, what if you just, like, have a fun office hookup and then you're like, oh, I work at h.r.


Tyson/Alexa

Like, I have to tell someone so like to be, I don't know, but like, other like I've been with my husband since I was like, 12th. Pretty much be like, oh, God bless your sleep. Like, it's been, like 100 years. And but so I guess I have like a not a great perspective, but like, I don't know, I feel like I would be like, like, tread very lightly.


Tyson/Alexa

Like if I was single, like, I don't know if I'd be like, Yeah, you got to be careful. Yeah. Yeah. I think in general, people should be a little bit more careful about work because it's like it is. I hate to use this sort of, but you know, I'll use it because it's made like potty mouth, like you.


Tyson/Alexa

You got to be careful when you sit where you eat.


Jon

I was just going to say the same thing. Yeah. You know, that's what we were always told. And it's not it's, it's not bad advice.


Tyson/Alexa

It's not bad advice. And like, you know, I, I got the Wall Street training out of college, which was like, if you don't want it on the front page of The Wall Street Journal, don't put it in writing it. Don't do it. It's like, yeah, if you don't want the whole fucking office to talk about your escapades, like.


Jon

Oh, or if you know what.


Tyson/Alexa

Your escapades in front of the office.


Jon

Or if you don't want to have to see the person every day after you break up because you still work together, right? They don't then don't date a coworker because that there's there's a chance you might live happily ever after and get married and have three kids, the house in the suburbs and all that. But there's an equal or better chance that y'all are not.


Jon

You're going to date for a month decide it's not working out and break up and then yeah now you got to see your the cube next to you every single day for as long as.


Tyson/Alexa

You suffered that a few times. Just like crushes and other things. I'm like, Oh, this sucks. Like, I have to get over this person that my ego's bruised. So now I'm angry. But I will say the one thing I've always wanted to avoid is like someone assuming that I got something or did something because of a dynamic that was based on another person.


Tyson/Alexa

Like I just refuse to let that shit fucking happen, which is that's my that's my, that's my boundary. And in a world of blurred, blurred lines, which we are talking about today. Okay, so, so in the consensual, like I'm a consenting adult, this person just happens to be employed by the same place. It's largely like keep your shit together, disclose it.


Tyson/Alexa

If there's a weird potential data share or power issue, try to be proactive about the disclosure in those situations, I would assume. And then that leads me to my next question, which is all of these scenarios where there is some sort of advance made by a coworker that is not thwarted. So someone is and again, there's a spectrum here, right?


Tyson/Alexa

There's like, hey, the the sales guy asked me out and I said no. And then there's the like, the guy in marketing won't leave me alone. Right?


Jon

And he texted me every day. He showed he showed up at my door with me here.


Tyson/Alexa

This is and I'm sure women do this to men all the time to I don't want to just use. And it goes both ways. She goes, regardless of gender is like overstepping someone's personal space and boundaries is overstepping someone's personal space and boundaries. It is even more insidious at work because you are captive, because you have to be there.


Jon

Well, and that would seem when you talk about reporting that that becomes a situation where the the employee who's receiving the unwelcome advance the first time. Right. Like Joe or Jill asks you out and you say, no, fine. They do it. Then. But what it repeats, even though it's now been clear that is not welcome. Now it becomes an issue because now you have a hostile work environment that is potentially being created.


Jon

Or if there is a power dynamic in the situation, you might you might have a Harvey like a Harvey Weinstein type situation where, you know, the boss asked me to dinner and I said no, and now I feel either pressured to say yes or I said no. And now that demoted, I'm losing opportunities. I feel like I've lost favor, whatever.


Jon

And so you have real serious in either situation have real serious liability concerns from the company's perspective that you need to step in and step in and fix and. Well, you know, and in situations like I run this, I run this worst employer listing every year on my website. And the winner last year was.


Tyson/Alexa

Oh my God, yeah, I know what.


Jon

Year it was.


Tyson/Alexa

The woman that got.


Jon

Murdered, she got, oh, she had spurned.


Tyson/Alexa

Parking.


Jon

Garage.


Tyson/Alexa

She had tell people the story real quick.


Jon

So she worked at a Walgreen's in Colorado. She was a high school student. She spurned the advances of someone like ten years her senior. He was sexually verbal, said, I'm not going to see him romantically because there was this ten year age gap and she was a teenager, just like sexually attracted to her. He made advances to her.


Jon

She turned him down. She, you know, reported it to h.r. Two to the store management and the deal. All they did, at least the news reports say all they did was pull the guy aside and say, hey, keep it professional. Right? So a 26 year old guy is hitting on a 16 year old coworker, and they just tell the guy to keep it professional.


Jon

And six months later, she turns up dead in the storeroom of the store and like, Yeah. And the guy's, like, beaten to death. Yeah. And the guy's arrested, like, 60 miles away. It's like they have him on. They have him on camera, like. Like taping up the windows in the break room before the assault happened, before the murder happened and putting boxes in front of the video camera to block the view shows.


Jon

Yes. I mean, it is it is an. All right. It is an awful fucking story. But that's like when you talk about like what can happen when, you know, H.R. or management doesn't take these type of complaints seriously. Like if the switch flips are like, that's the kind of like, that's that that could happen. And that's like, that's like it's a nightmare.


Tyson/Alexa

Right? Okay. Well, now that we've talked about murder and Harvey Weinstein, I think we are going to take a quick two minute break. And we will be we will be right back.


Speaker 3

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Tyson/Alexa

Okay, so let's turn this around for murder because that's an extreme. And we're still talking about mostly consensual relationships at the office. Go ahead.


Jon

So this is this is like this is like the Valentine's Day episode, right?


Tyson/Alexa

We got a preemptive preemptive. So I think no, I think, you know, we talk about like, yeah, okay, let's let's focus on like the also. But the thing is, like when when John and I feel like we get involved in these things, like it is typically when things become either they were consensual and then they're not or like, they never were.


Tyson/Alexa

And that is like the the thing, right? That's when it becomes an issue. And it's it's very weird ground to walk on because a lot of this stuff doesn't just happen inside the workplace. But there is sort of like a component of this which is also happening outside the workplace, whether it be like, you know, out outside of company tools like maybe like chat groups or WhatsApp or whatever.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, you know, meetings outside.


Jon

Like the happy hours after work. So you work with everybody Connected or even like, you know.


Tyson/Alexa

Your husband always smells like if you're married, like, I never really thought of that. Like if you're married and you work at the same company, like in theory, your emails, your husband, like, are as, as like, open to scrutiny as every other coworker email. You would be shocked, though, what people put in company email or what many supply channels or, you know, outlook or whatever it is that people are using.


Tyson/Alexa

Like it's it's shocking to me what people say on their on chat like internal chat groups of I can only imagine and yeah and bigger companies like they have those softwares where like they read your email and like shit gets flagged to like compliance teams. Like if you're using naughty language in an email like this, just like it flagged for why.


Tyson/Alexa

So this is this is I'll tell a quick story here I once had a manager come to me and be like, I feel really, really, really awkward about something and I don't know who to talk to about it. And she showed me in her on her work email were screenshots from workplace chat between two people who were in a lover's quarrel.


Tyson/Alexa

It turns out the wife of the man saw this chat happening, screenshotted it and sent it using his work email to the boss. So the quarrel was happening between two people who were having an affair. The wife found out screenshotted the quarrel sent and a quarrel was between coworkers. Coworkers? Yeah. And then she got a hold of his work.


Tyson/Alexa

iPhone Screenshot it, all of it and sent from his voice mail. Addictive shit. She's boss and she figured out who his boss was and sent it and the boss came. He was. Hell hath no fury like a woman.


Jon

Tomorrow you have all the story is don't let your spouse know the pin code to your to your work device. I guess. I don't know, but.


Tyson/Alexa

But I don't know. What do you do as the manager in that? Like, it's not my fucking business if they're sleeping together, if they're doing their jobs. Well, that's what she said. She's like, I just I don't like I shouldn't be reading this. Like, she's like, I feel like I shouldn't see this and I shouldn't be reading this, but it just it don't matter to the manager if there's a conflict of interest that those two teammates are sleeping together.


Tyson/Alexa

Right. But also this is what happened. So then I get involved from an H.R. perspective. And what my thought is, is do you feel safe in the workplace? And the problem is, is that this individual who's being harassed now by not only the disagreement that she had with the man, but also now the wife who has access to the husband's phone and is text messaging on the work phone to the person in the office, like it becomes an issue because all of a sudden now I have an employee who's being harassed through workplace tools and that the Oh, wow.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, I never thought of that one. Yeah, that is a problem. But what do you do? Like she got into this affair with this dude, like, knowingly, Like she she just because she. They both work for you doesn't mean they're not, like consenting adults. And it's typical, too, right? Because you say, hey, you can harasser just not on the work phone like what do you do?


Tyson/Alexa

But if this is a relationship like if the person didn't if it didn't work that like h.r. Wouldn't get involved. You know what I mean? Like, if that person was being, like, harassed or having an argument with a person who didn't wasn't a fellow employee, like, I wouldn't get involved with That is the same way like John you mentioned like, yeah, it's an issue, but sometimes it actually becomes like a bigger issue than that.


Tyson/Alexa

Like, I've actually instructed people to call the police. Yeah. If someone shows up at your door, do not call me.


Jon

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. If your coworker. Right. Who keeps asking you out and you keep saying no. Right. Shows up. Right. You, you look at your you know the your your ring app and see that he's, you know, hanging out in front of your door, you know, on your camera.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah.


Jon

Yep. And that is do you not do not call h.r call Yeah. Called call 911 or the Canadian equivalent. Right. And yeah.


Tyson/Alexa

And yeah, well, it's like I think it's a good reminder for people, like in any situation, like, it doesn't matter if you're at work or not. Like, if you are uncomfortable, you go through the normal channels that you would go through if you are uncomfortable, like, yeah, and I think it's interesting. It's also interesting because, I mean, I kind of have had thought of this before, but like, you wouldn't go to H.R. in any of these situations if this was just happening to you in your personal life.


Tyson/Alexa

So why like how I guess one in one in one sense, like how does H.R. help other than just like, keep that shit off the company, you know, the company's liability list, but also, like, why does that help and why does that hurt? I mean, it hurts because now all of a sudden, your shit's like, known to the organization, which, like if you're smart, you don't want.


Jon

But yeah, but I mean, it it becomes an issue because I don't want to get to like legally technical, But Title seven, the Workplace Discrimination law, says that if the employer knows that this stuff is going on and doesn't do anything about it to correct it, the employer can the employer can be liable. So it becomes it becomes it becomes an H.R. issue once it's harassment.


Jon

Like if it's harassment. Right, right, right.


Tyson/Alexa

Right, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's just like you treat any harassment, right? Right. So it's sexual harassment the way that you would treat anything like that. Certainly. And then it's at.


Jon

It's harassment, whether it's at work or if it's even if it's, you know, to an employee sitting on his couch sending inappropriate text messages at 2:00 in the morning, if it's to a coworker. I mean, that becomes an issue, too, because now they're going to come back into the workplace and they're going to carry that uncomfortableness into the workplace.


Jon

So it's an H.R. issue, whether the conduct is at work or outside of work.


Tyson/Alexa

And employers need to take a stand. Right. Like it's just it's not tolerable behavior. So typically, like, again, like it's, you know, a exit, depending on how serious it is, I actually have never gone as far as firing someone over something like this. But I've had some very, very, very awkward conversations. Can you please stop? Like there there have been some very, very awkward conversations, but that was just based off of like, you know, looking at the whole picture.


Tyson/Alexa

So so I mean, what do you do in those instances? Are you just like, quote, the code of conduct, like, hey, you can't continue to make another employee feel uncomfortable with your advances? Like, if this continues, you got to go. Hey, it's continued. You got.


Jon

To go. That's what you that's what I would that's what I would recommend I mean, on a first pass, I mean, that's what you do If there is if there's like a like a type, like an offensive touching like an a like an actual like assault. Totally different story. That's a transition. Yeah, that's a termination. No questions asked.


Jon

But if it's just on conversations or comments or messages that are making someone uncomfortable conversation, one assuming it's a clean history conversation, one is this has to stop now. But you've been warned. Don't let this happen again. And then if it happens again, then it's termination of the second time.


Tyson/Alexa

Exactly. So looking at the full zoomed out picture is really important too. So I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole because I do want to stick with just like office romances and not just make this all about sexual harassment. But I was recently speaking to someone actually came to me and was like, What do you recommend?


Tyson/Alexa

I was like, I don't I recommend you talk to a lawyer. But the the situation was that a young woman who I know through friends sort of early in her career is a physical therapist, and she took a new job, is sort of a younger physical therapist in an Office of Physical therapists. And very early into her new job at this office, basically got smacked on the bum by a, I believe, someone that is either like been there longer and is a peer or is potentially an authority figure.


Tyson/Alexa

I don't remember the exact hierarchy of the situation, but long story short, like P basically like patted her on the bum like it was one of those and she went through the channels of sort of like reporting this to the employer and saying, Hey, like, this guy made this uncomfortable advance at me. And they're sort of a smaller company.


Tyson/Alexa

And so they they basically were like, you know, okay, we'll take it up with him. He basically denies it or said it was like a misunderstanding or something. And now this young woman is sort of stuck in this rock between this rock and a hard place, which is like, do I stay and like, you know, confront, be confronted.


Tyson/Alexa

And it's actually a very common situation, I assume. Do I stay and be confronted with this all the time, and do I pursue what I view to be the righteous act here, which is like pursuing this guy beyond what the employer is willing to do because this is uncomfortable? Or do I let it go and then, you know, quote unquote, he wins like I and I was like, I don't know, like this.


Tyson/Alexa

There's no winning this situation. Like, she just needs to look out for herself, what makes her comfortable. But like, then, you know, the response is, well, she shouldn't have to leave the workplace because she's uncomfortable. And I don't know what you do in that situation. John, any thoughts? Tyson Any experience? I know what.


Jon

You I think I think you give us I, I think you give a stern warning to the to the accused and say, look, we can't confirm or deny that this happened or didn't happen. We appreciate your side of the story. But understand, this behavior as a.


Tyson/Alexa

Zero is just.


Jon

Completely inappropriate in the workplace and you want and you're on notice and this is going to go in your personnel file and Yeah, and future allegations of a similar nature are going to be looked at through this lens because there's.


Tyson/Alexa

Still and I think. Yeah, sorry to interrupt you. I think one of the other confusing factors was that she had made a request to not be staffed with him anymore, like on the same shifts or some shit like that. I don't know exactly which is.


Jon

Which is a reasonable request. It's a.


Tyson/Alexa

Reasonable request.


Jon

You can make that work. I would make that work.


Tyson/Alexa

And I don't know that they I don't know if they couldn't make it work or if they just were like, Yeah, yeah, we'll try. And like didn't really make a concerted effort. And I think that's where a lot of her like I need to get back at this situation comes in because I mean, if you're a smart employer, like you would do your best to not staff those people together.


Jon

You really wouldn't want them together. You would, right? Yeah.


Tyson/Alexa

Right now it's in everybody's best interest to keep them apart for as long as possible. But yeah, it's interesting because it's always like, well, it's it's an accusation. So like, you can't just like, you can't just fire people outright. Like you've got to have a warning period and you've got to have. But then again, you can't ignore it for too long or things can get really ugly.


Tyson/Alexa

I think it's just it's just problematic in general too, that often, like times people don't believe, like the victim and like there's just this like automatic assumption that, like, you need like all this, like proof and stuff. So like me speaking as like a woman, I'm just like, it's so ridiculous that people would have to, like, feel uncomfortable and, like, have to feel so they'd have to leave their job.


Tyson/Alexa

So the way I bring that into, you know, practicing h.r. Is it's not that unrealistic of a like it's not such a bizarre request that she would say, I don't want to work with this person anymore for her to come to me and, like, explain to, like, what happened, like, whether there's witnesses or not, it's not that hard to to make those sort of adjustments.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, that was the point I pointed out was like, if they can make a reasonable accommodation here, they should. And if they don't, maybe that's the part you want to be stern about with them as a, you know, as a labor issue. But beyond that, like, there's not that much they can do. It's an act, it's an accusation with no no proof point.


Tyson/Alexa

Like there's it's also you really want to work there. Like that's what I said I'd be like, this is going to affect her mental health. Like why exactly.


Jon

It doesn't say much for the company.


Tyson/Alexa

Like, well, but then then, you know, they win. It's like nobody wins. Like there's no winning this. Like it's just feeling uncomfortable. Every day is like you losing for sure. Yeah. Like, and like, what else are they going to let slide and handle poorly? Like asking the fuck out of there? I mean, yeah, you're going in your career.


Tyson/Alexa

Go. Yeah. That brings up a really like it's, it's really hard because not everybody can just leave. Like, a lot of people are very, very, very dependent on like the income that they're. Man she's young and she just got the job and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. All right, so what else are we not considering? So I think it's is there anything like benign that you can think of that people just like kind of forget when you're like, Oh yeah, yeah.


Tyson/Alexa

Like, I know you guys are dating and like, everyone in the office knows that, but that doesn't mean you can ex or should be wary of why? Like, I think one of the other thing that's interesting, which is a whole bucket of this that we have not really talked about yet. And Tyson, your story about the guy who asked you to, like confirm for his wife that he was coughing.


Tyson/Alexa

Oh, yeah. Which is fucking crazy is when people bring just romance in general into the office, regardless of whether whether it's with a coworker. Like when people bring that shit to work, it can get really dicey. You know, it's, it's, it's along the lines of like any of the other sort of personal categories that we talk about bleeding into work life.


Tyson/Alexa

Right. Like mental health and family history and, you know, all the shit that goes on outside of like you do in your job.


Jon

You don't want to be judged by your coworkers. Don't talk about it at work.


Tyson/Alexa

Well, yeah.


Jon

So that I'm. Yeah, but yeah, if you don't want your go, if you don't want your coworkers gossiping about your love life, then don't advertise it at work either. By having, like, public displays of affection or whatever with your, with your other half in the workplace or telling you about it or whatever.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah. I mean, just in general, like I can think of people that I'm like, you know, you might want to keep your, like personal escapades like a little bit on the deal because it kind of is making me judge your decision making abilities at work. But like, maybe don't tell me all the crazy shit you do on the weekends because it's affecting my ability to judge you as a coworker.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, I, I just think people, like, don't always think about that stuff or, you know, but I don't know. It's kind of weird when, like, you have a colleague that you've worked with for a really long time and they're so private that you're like, I don't feel like I know anything about this person.


Jon

Which seems weird. Which seems weird.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, that's a weird balance. Yeah, exactly. It's like, I don't know, Those are two extremes, though. That's like, okay, all right, You're all of my. What's the healthy medium? And I think I have only experienced healthy mediums like I have only ever experienced. Like. Well, yes. There's been like the time where like someone's maybe like she over shared, especially given the fact that sometimes people overshare with me.


Tyson/Alexa

But typically in my history, most people have, you know, kept it to like, oh yeah, like my husband is this or, you know, we've done this on the weekend or our family's doing that or whatever. But like for the most part, I, I feel as though people are they know the boundaries about like what you would talk about in a professional landscape.


Jon

I feel like the people that don't understand those boundaries are going to exhibit poor judgment in other aspects of their how they perform their jobs too, because that's a there is a where.


Tyson/Alexa

There's smoke, there's fire. Yeah.


Jon

There was a switch and it's not connecting somewhere. If you complain.


Tyson/Alexa

About your husband at work, you are on my watch list. Yeah. You're a poor performer. No, no, no. But no, it's interesting. And like so I guess other like a weird I think things that have happened is when, like, okay, so I had this weird situation where an employee like, misinterpret did the connection that they had with someone.


Tyson/Alexa

This is a good one. This is not a good one. Tyson So it was a female and she misinterpreted the professional dinner that she had with a male, someone who was more senior. She misinterpreted it. It was a one on one dinner between a man and a woman. And it was misinterpreted by the woman to be romantic, to be romantic.


Tyson/Alexa

There were some cultural differences, too, which made it like a little bit different. You know, someone from I can go into like more details than that. But there were some cultural differences which, you know, it seemed like there could have been like something more there, that this was a date, not a one on one. And yeah, and it was one on one.


Jon

And I would I would I would say, though, that if you are in a senior position, probably not the best idea to go on a one on one dinner with with with a with a subordinate of the opposite sex.


Tyson/Alexa

It was great. It was a it was a cultural thing. I think it's I just think it's about how you set it up. Like, I think you need to be clear like, hey, let's grab dinner. I want to talk about this. Or like, Hey, let's do our one on one. Like we're going to be traveling in Atlanta. It's just let's do it at dinner.


Tyson/Alexa

It's great to be going this following this was in conversation with another senior guy and he was like, I would never do that. I would never take a woman out for dinner. Like I would always do a lunch or, you know, I just go like, dinner is like a last resort. Dinner is like we've been at a conference all day or something.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah. So anyways, so it was misinterpreted and this, it, it escalated very quickly. And the guy was like, I like he was very high level and was like, Please, no. Like, I'm telling you, like, this is not a thing. And the woman. So what happened? She, like, starts confessing her love to him or what? What happened? Yes, Yes.


Tyson/Alexa

And she left her husband out and yeah. And took some extended time off because of that. And her performance at work went through like it just became a really bad situation. Like she wasn't performing. She showed up to work. Like, not like you could just tell like, she was nasty. Doesn't sound well. This is like Fatal Attraction.


Jon

Like. Yeah, she's.


Tyson/Alexa

Kind of though. And just like, Yeah. And it was, it was a really good like not good but like it was a, an interesting conversation from like again, like a cultural perspective because like we kind of said, we're like, okay, we're very different here in Toronto. We are not like the French Canadians where we kiss, kiss on the cheek, you know, it's like very, very different.


Tyson/Alexa

So it was yeah, it was just a weird situation because from the other, you know, those two sides to every story, but from the other perspective, he's like, I don't know what I did. He's like, This is bizarre. And it just like escalated so quickly and learned that everybody doesn't do that anymore.


Jon

Perception. I mean, perception is reality, man. And she clearly saw something there that wasn't and created it.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, well, it's also I mean, look, if it it clearly did not escalate to that overnight. It's not like they went to dinner and the next day the woman was like, I assume that the next day the woman was I'm leaving my husband, I'm in love with you forever. Like there was some escalation period there where he clearly probably either missed some very obvious signs or chose to conveniently avoid them.


Tyson/Alexa

No offense, but men tend to be a little more avoidant than us females when it comes to matters of the heart. I can say blanket statements like that because there's no one here to argue with me, John, for not arguing with me. And I just think like he obviously missed some like major opportunities to like possibly snuff that or say, Hey, I think I'm dealing with someone who, like maybe isn't all okay on this front and like, isn't interpreting this correctly.


Tyson/Alexa

And, you know, I hate to say it, but like probably should have articulated it to someone internally, like well before it got to that point again. And I don't want to put all the onus on him for like making the mistake of inviting in, you know, a vulnerable person to dinner that could be misinterpreted. Because, again, to Tyson's great point, there are three sides to every story, like he left it open to interpretation.


Tyson/Alexa

Unfortunately, she misinterpreted it. So there is fault on both ends. But you know, you can't can he can't control the fact that that woman is like emotionally unstable and did these things right. That's not his fault. It's not his responsibility either. But the responsibility was for him to manage it better upfront, which I'm sure he does now, and probably proactive to snuff that either with some sort of internal disclosure or just in his general handling of her to be like much more boundary than he probably was as it escalated.


Tyson/Alexa

But yeah man this should a sticky like that's what I say man you got to be careful when you see where you eat like some of these situations ever.


Jon

I've never dated anyone I worked with for that exact reason. I just haven't. It's just not dated and it's not worth it. It's not worth the headaches.


Tyson/Alexa

I don't. I wouldn't do it now. I don't think. I don't know. I'm so like. I don't know. I'm so much better handle on these things like I did when I was in my twenties. Totally. Anything ever happened to my husband? I'm becoming a cat lady, so. Oh, come on, you. You know what? A tariff disagrees with me, Tyson.


Tyson/Alexa

Absolutely. I know.


Jon

I told my my, my wife.


Tyson/Alexa

I'm a great wing woman.


Jon

My wife is six years older. And I told her that it's good for your job if if she if she goes first, going like, I'm going way young, right. I'm going I'll be I'm going to be like 75.


Tyson/Alexa

I'm going to be one of those guys with a 30 with a 25 year old girlfriend.


Jon

Hell yeah.


Tyson/Alexa

Why? What does the males need to do that? Where does that boomerang intention come from? It's not like you're trying to have kids if you're 75.


Jon

No, you don't.


Tyson/Alexa

Need a breeder.


Jon

Like what? What?


Tyson/Alexa

Where? What does that come from? I just want.


Jon

To look at it. No, the reality is, at 75, there's no chance I'd be able to keep up anyway. So, I mean, let's not. I mean, let's not. Let's not kid ourselves. So.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, I heard something fascinating recently that, like, the female sex drive is, like, less way longer than males. I didn't know that. That women peak like 20 years after men who.


Jon

No interesting.


Tyson/Alexa

You know, something to look forward to for us. US old ladies. There you go. Yeah. We're not even in our prime yet. Let's go. All right. With that? No. Any other closing thoughts on this same topic, which is sleep. But it's like, I'm so glad we had this conversation because I feel like I've learned a lot, but also like, the shit happens all the time.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, all the fucking time.


Jon

Closing thoughts? I don't know. Don't, don't. Don't email nudes of yourself around the office. That's my.


Tyson/Alexa

Oh, God. Why do we have to tell people that?


Jon

Because.


Tyson/Alexa

But again, like, there were obviously some red flags with that CEO well before that situation. Like there have to be. It's like the same thing. Like when like guys go to the strip club with coworkers and clients. I'm like, do you really want this? Like to be the thing that I did all these guys like you for, like you don't know if professionally that's such a good move.


Jon

He did that too. Not, not, not. Not surprisingly.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, well, it is almost Valentine's Day, so just. Oh, can we talk about that for one second before we go? Any like, do's and don'ts around Valentine's Day for you guys? Like, at least, like, personal opinion, Like, I'm not a big Valentine's Day person. I think it's like a Hallmark holiday and idealistic as fuck. So I'm like, you should just be like this all the time.


Jon

Every day I tell my wife I love her. 365 So I do not need one. Actually, in Ohio, get two. We get Valentine's Day and Sweetest day, which is this bullshit fake Valentine's Day that someone made up for October. So we get it twice. But I don't. I don't. We don't do Valentine's Day. I don't need it. So we just.


Jon

We. Yeah, it's. I'm with you. I think it's a bullshit way to sell things that I don't need to subscribe to.


Tyson/Alexa

Yeah, it's just really stated. Make a dinner reservation here. Hold on. Let me just, like, add a different perspective. So when when my husband and I started dating, I was young. I was probably. I was like, 20, right? And I want to be really cool. And I was like, you know what? I don't care. Like, we love each other every day of the year.


Tyson/Alexa

No big deal. I'm trying to be like a low maintenance girl. I like super cool. Like no big deal. You know? Valentine's Day came along and I waited. And I waited and I waited. And nothing came as a quick buck. Like, come on, you set the expectation. So nothing like he planned nothing because he is a guy and he just, like, takes my word for what it is and as like, as we should, as I said, because I said I didn't want anything.


Tyson/Alexa

He didn't do anything. And it's this joke. So every Valentine's Day since he has tried to plan something and it always, always, always fucks up and it goes wrong. So first I'll give you an example. So he tries to do something like The universe just conspires against you, you hope? Yeah. I'll give you an example. So like last year, for example, he wanted to send flowers, so he went on.


Tyson/Alexa

You like, ordered flowers and something went wrong and they never came. And he, like, waited all day. Like he was expecting me to, like, be like, Oh, hey, like, are they. You know, like you don't say anything. Since it's new surprise, they never came anyway. So the end of the day, like I was class and he was like, What the fuck?


Tyson/Alexa

He's like, I ordered his flowers. They're supposed to come blow up. So then he, like, pulls them like, Oh, I didn't get my order. Tell him I say, my wife, she's all upset by the books. And they're like, okay, don't worry about it. So we're going to send you flowers right away. Get them on February 4th or 15th.


Tyson/Alexa

And because, you know, we messed up, we're going to send you like a free box of chocolates. And the chocolate comes and it's like alcohol filled. And I was pregnant at the time, so I couldn't even, like, eat that alcohol filled chocolate that they sent for free. And so that was just like eating it, just like it's so funny, like things just like, goes so wrong, Like it's it.


Tyson/Alexa

But you've embraced it and I love it's like you guys, it's so funny. That's great. It's like a poster for us. Yeah. Before we go to our people. Problem, I will say important life lesson just because. Fuck it, Why not? This doesn't have to all all be business like I used to be the girl that was like, I don't need anything.


Tyson/Alexa

I'm cool. I'm so easy. I'm so low maintenance. I'm like, Look, if something gets fucked up, like, I'm going to be pissed that like, you forgot or like, things happen like this. It's more like you should want to do the thing for me and like, it's okay that I want you to do the thing for me. Like that doesn't make me less like independent or strong or like, no, sometimes I want people to do nice shit for me.


Tyson/Alexa

But you can't just ask. But you can't. People can't meet expectations they don't know about. You can't set the expectation that you don't want anything and then be pissed when they don't do anything. Because I've dated enough boneheads who don't know. That's an invitation to still do the thing because of mean. Oh, I'm off, I'm off scot free.


Tyson/Alexa

Cool. Like she doesn't want anything. She's easy. That's why Beta is like, No, fuck you. Like, do the thing. Anyway, I'm a girl. It's complicated. All right, let's move on to our people. Problem. Tyson, what do we got? All right. Hope someone at work has feelings for me and has shared this with me, but I don't feel the same way.


Tyson/Alexa

How can I make this not awkward? Awkward is where this is. This is. This is how to say no and walk away and never see them again.


Jon

It's going to be you're going to be that. It's going to be awkward no matter what.


Tyson/Alexa

Totally. Yeah, it's. It is. All right. That's it. It is awkward. So it's how you make it.


Jon

How do you make it less?


Tyson/Alexa

How do you make it awkward.


Jon

Or how do you make it? How do you make it more manageable?


Tyson/Alexa

Tell them that you're already involved with somebody else. That was always my go to. I have a boyfriend.


Jon

Gay is another.


Tyson/Alexa

Lily Allen song. It's like I can't walk away, can't knock them out anyways. No idea about it. Like go listen to that song is called Knock Them Out by Lily Allen. She gives a few pieces of advice on how to turn guys down. You can't use this in the workplace, I don't think, because it doesn't work. But I had a friend once who a friend of ours was like, there was a guy hanging out with the girls kind of, and he kept hitting on our friend tab and I think it was cat or no, it was.


Tyson/Alexa

It was this other woman. I forget who of the girls it was that I was with. But anyway, this guy Preston was like trying to hit on her and like, trying to, like, get all touchy feely with her and she just like, wasn't into it. And so he like, at some point he was like being kind of touchy feely and she just goes like, I have to poop him.


Tyson/Alexa

The interaction ended immediately. He was like this, I'm not trying this anymore. Like, you've officially killed my buzz. So unfortunately, I don't I can't think of like what the the work related aphrodisiac to that version of that is but or anti is to that but I don't you all say I don't date people at work like I can just say like so I appreciate this but yeah I'm not comfortable dating someone at work and I have other interests right now that I'm pursuing.


Tyson/Alexa

But like, I'm flattered by your interest and like, you know, let's not mix fucking thing and there's awkward, which it will be. It's already awkward. Unsafe which is something completely different. Right. And momentary awkwardness to, like save a thing and set the boundary well out like well outperforms that constant awkwardness you will feel if you don't just fucking handle it at that moment.


Tyson/Alexa

Boundaries, man. Setting boundaries is uncomfortable, but you will not. It's like showering. You won't regret to say no. Yeah. Be very clear about your exactly. Set your boundaries and it's okay. Like you might hurt their feelings. It might be awkward, but they've already made it a little awkward. Or you wouldn't be asking this question. So. Yeah, set your boundaries.


Tyson/Alexa

All right, John, thank you, as always. Wonderful to see you. Can't wait to have you back again soon.


Jon

Good to see you guys, too. Thanks for having me back. I really appreciate it.


Tyson/Alexa

Toodles. Done. Cheers. Happy Singles Awareness Day.