21 - Lucky Number 21

Tyson takes the reins and interviews Alexa on the origins of The People Ops Society or POPS (and WTF that is), the group that brought their girl crush together and you get a littlle more insight on who these two potty mouths really are...

Release Date: November 9, 2021

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Warning, this podcast is about the realities of working in people operations. This is not a stuck-up PC compliance-based or employment law podcast about stuffy outdated HR practices. Shit will get real here, and we assume no responsibility.

[00:00:16] Speaker 2: And we had a strict no alcohol policy and everybody was like, "Oh, don't drink. HR is here". Meanwhile, I'm like mid crack the beer.

[00:00:24] Speaker 3: If they're that disengaged before, they're gonna be that disengaged in the office just be sitting at their desk at Facebook.

[00:00:29] Speaker 4: They were going find ways [inaudible 00:00:30] to withdraw.

[00:00:31] Speaker 5: This is the People Problems Podcast with Alexa Baggio and Tyson Mackenzie.

[00:00:40] Alexa Baggio: Hello, Tyson.

[00:00:41] Tyson Mackenzie: Hey there. How's it going?

[00:00:44] Alexa: Good. How are you?

[00:00:46] Tyson: Good. Really good.

[00:00:47] Alexa: Actually, tru-truthfully, I'm a little low energy. I'm being totally honest. I'm just gonna call- I'm just gonna call it out tonight.

[00:00:53] Tyson: I got one- I got one of my longest stretches. I think I got like a six-and-a-half hour stretch last night. So I am like feeling like I just like, I don't know, drank, uh, 17 espressos.

[00:01:04] Alexa: I could use an espresso right now 'cause I've been trying not to drink caffeine after like two or three o'clock

[00:01:08] Tyson: I-I don't, I couldn't. I can't, but yeah.

[00:01:11] Alexa: I don't, I couldn't, I can't.

[00:01:13] Tyson: I know. No, I can't.

[00:01:14] Alexa: I will not. Yeah. I-I think I got a great night's sleep. I just, I woke up and did CrossFit this morning, which I haven't done in a little while 'cause I've been running a bunch and the, I think that plus the combination of like cold fall weather and it being almost dark.

[00:01:28] Tyson: It's miserable.

[00:01:28] Alexa: And it's like 5:00-5:30 is pretty fucking depressing. So.

[00:01:32] Tyson: I'm looking forward to my fallback extra hour this weekend.

[00:01:37] Alexa: Yes-yes and I actually have to go to a wedding in Miami this weekend and I'm like, "This is genius. We get one more hour of free party."

[00:01:42] Tyson: That's amazing.

[00:01:44] Alexa: Yeah. Yes.

[00:01:44] Tyson: Good timing. It's always good. I'm just gonna sleep more. It's gonna fuck up my baby, but I, uh, we'll see how it goes.

[00:01:50] Alexa: Maybe she won't notice. My dog always notices.

[00:01:52] Tyson: They do.

[00:01:52] Alexa: And my cat, "Damn you, you can't get up for breakfast at 4:00 AM. This is not how this works."

[00:01:56] Tyson: Yeah-yeah-yeah.

[00:01:57] Alexa: She's like, "I don't give a shit. I'm hungry."

[00:01:59] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:02:00] Alexa: Yeah. So fuck-fuck the fall and the shortening days, but besides that, I am- I'm great.

[00:02:05] Tyson: Amazing.

[00:02:06] Alexa: Yeah. All right. You wanna- you wanna crush this? So it's just us today, but we're gonna start with our POPS in the news.


All right, Tyson. So I'm gonna try really hard to briefly summarize this very long article.

[00:02:28] Tyson: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:29] Alexa: Uh, I actually like the article, I just it's-it's a long one. At some point we should start posting these articles somewhere for our fans and listeners, but the article is called- it's actually on Recode, which is a Vox Technology blog and it is titled, "Why everybody's hiring, but nobody's getting hired. America's broken hiring system explained." And so the general gist of this article is- and I, and-and one of the reasons I liked it and I picked it for today is, it's finally talking about a layer of the buzzwords that people don't usually get to.

So if the buzz- if the- if the headlines are like, oh, the great resignation, right? Which is like, if I hear that one more fucking time, I'm gonna kill somebody. It- it's-it's a very flawed comment. And-and this article is-is one of the first articles I've read that actually tries to articulate why that's, it's a lot more nuanced than just like everybody's quitting their job. The sort of key takeaway from the article on Vox is basically that for the first time in over 20 years, the ratio of job openings to hires is as big as it has ever been by like 10X.

Like it's huge.

So what that means is, you know, while everyone knows that bunch of people are quitting, right, what is happening is more job openings are becoming available and they're not being filled at as faster rates. So there's a lot more job openings coming to market, and they're not- they're not hiring as fast as they normally would. So the number of openings is, uh, versus hires is widening.

And there's a couple reasons for that. I'll just summarize a few quick ones and then- and then you can jump in, Tyson, but uh, on the employee side-- And I like this article, 'cause it shows both sides of this argument. It's not just like, "Oh, everyone's just quitting 'cause they're, you know, they've had their pandemic, you know, epiphany and they, you know, they wanna go change their life in kumbaya." Although that is one of the things cited is like people have reevaluated and I'm-I'm done with that argument. Everyone knows what that is.

You know, the other one is a piece of that, which is that everybody wants more flexible jobs. Everybody wants to work remote, wants to be hybrid, wants to be flexible if they have that luxury. And on the employer side, they-they mentioned some really awesome stuff, which is a couple things. One, they comment on how hiring software is actually like incredibly broken and a really flawed tool.

Talked about [unintelligible 00:04:36] systems on our last episode with Miriam a bit. But they talk a lot about how like companies are relying too much on software that's not doing enough to actually help them hire and hire better. So for example, there's too many job postings on LinkedIn, right? There's too many postings, they don't tend to take them down, they'll just add new ones. So there's all these postings on LinkedIn, which make it very hard to like sift through and find the right one for you.

The reverse of that is that's insanely easy to post a job or to apply for a job on LinkedIn, right? It's just, and this is like one of eight million softwares, it's like candidate recruitment and hiring software's like a whole fucking multi-billion-dollar industry. This idea that like with the click of a button, you can apply to a job, right? It's like the common app of job applications--

[00:05:17] Tyson: Yeah, you don't even have to-to do anything [crosstalk], like you just--

[00:05:20] Alexa: It's unruly.

[00:05:20] Tyson: It pulls from your LinkedIn and then just boop apply, done.

[00:05:23] Alexa: Yeah. Right. So I- the fascinating statistic in this, I don't have it in front of me right now, but it was saying that the average number of applications for a public company is 250 applications per role. And the number of interviews is five, which is like, there's just too many resumes. It is too easy to apply.

And so I really like this article, because first and foremost, it-it-it highlights that not only is everybody- are people leaving their jobs, but like there's also more jobs being added. So the gap is widening and it also addresses like one of the systemic issues here is like hiring software's not necessarily making anything better. So.

[00:05:58] Tyson: Yeah, I think they also talk about the softwares that look for keywords too. I think a lot of people talk about that and trying to get keywords-

[00:06:04] Alexa: Yeah.

[00:06:05] Tyson: -into their resumes 'cause that like sort of filters through, uh, that's sort of like the first checkpoint for organizations is they submit keywords.

[00:06:12] Alexa: Fascinating. Yeah. It's-it's, there's a whole lot of like this one does keywords, this one does videos, this one does like, you know, Q&A, this one does-- It's-it's, there's just a lot of software and it's not necessarily making it more-- It's-it's both trying on one end to make it more bespoke to hire therefore more accurate and harder to apply to right?

Harder to get through the sieve, but the tools that are available, I think, largely to the masses, as employees, which are like indeed.com and you know, ZipRecruiter and all these guys, like they're just putting more resumes in more places and it's not necessarily helping anybody find the right job on top of the fact that everyone is having there, I wanna be a diva moment and trying to go, you know, live van life and work from Mars.

So it was- it's interesting. I-I really appreciate people who get into the nuances of some of these things, because if- I'm really tired of people talking about the great recession, it's insanely misleading. I-I think what people are missing is that like most of the jobs that people are quitting are like shitty low-wage, like restaurant and shift work.

Like this is not like- it's and it's also like 3% or 4% of the workforce. It is not 40% of the workforce as much as the common 50 plus percent of the workforce is considering leaving their job right now, statistic gets thrown around like these are people who have lived pretty shitty jobs. So great resignation is like a little bit more nuanced than what people think it is. But anyway, that's my soapbox. Um, I thought this article was really good and worth-worth giving it some thought. So it's all I got, Tyson.

[00:07:40] Tyson: Yeah. I-I liked it too. Another couple points. Um, they talk about the process of hiring, right? So job descriptions being almost, uh, and like people are just unable to-to meet the requirements. I kind of mentioned offline before we started, this idea like every job, everyone's always looking for this-this unicorn for every single job and that's not always the case, you don't always need, like, you know need- sometimes you have to take a chance on someone or hire for potential and not necessarily because they have X number of years’ experience doing the specific job you're hiring them for.

So something to- like a tip to consider is hiring people for potential if you see it, which can be harder. Um, obviously 'cause our old school hiring processes are looking usually at like backwards facing, right? And like proven success versus like what potential they have. But typically, the process- recruitment process from my perspective has been very difficult and very, you know, coordinating time and like managers that are--are taking a long time and then they, hem and haw on things, they don't really have a good understanding of what they're looking for and then they sit on it and then they put-put a posting out, sit on it and then don't hire.

So I see this-this done in practice, um, often where we'll get like the recruiters are like gung-ho to get the posting out, and then managers sit on it or they just don't really know what they want. And um, it ends up just some convoluted search for some- something that they don't even know what they're looking for.

[00:08:58] Alexa: And to be clear, I mean, there's lots of companies trying to fix this. Like I said, there's an asinine number of startups trying to fix the sort of talent acquisition problem. But like most companies are fucking terrible at recruiting.

[00:09:09] Tyson: Really terrible [crosstalk].

[00:09:10] Alexa: You don't know where you stand in the process, they don't- you don't have any communication. They don't-

[00:09:14] Tyson: Yeah, just that.

[00:09:15] Alexa: -they don't set a process internally. So that it's like [crosstalk] we gotta get back to this candidate. Even if the update is just, we don't have an update like every 72 hours.

[00:09:22] Tyson: Yeah. The article is that--

[00:09:23] Alexa: The number of times you like interview and don't hear anything for like three fucking weeks is depressing and truthfully just makes you look like a shitty employer but--

[00:09:30] Tyson: Yeah, the article references that as well, they say that the process is a black box. So like having a more transparent is for candidates is so important.

[00:09:36] Alexa: It's miserable. I interviewed years ago for this company in Silicon valley. I can't remember the name of it right now, but awesome, like sort of like healthcare-based startup in the benefit space and the guy who ran their hiring process was a fucking Jedi. Like this guy was on me every 24 to 48 hours with an update, like all the things. But I- it was like nothing I've ever seen, but usually it's the exact opposite.

[00:10:00] Tyson: Yeah. I've been through some-

[00:10:01] Alexa: I don't know.

[00:10:01] Tyson: -shady-

[00:10:02] Alexa: They told me next week-

[00:10:02] Tyson: -shady-shady processes.

[00:10:03] Alexa: -it's been three weeks. Yeah, it's pretty bad. Anyway.

[00:10:05] Tyson: Yeah, I had someone call me like three months later for a second interview and I was like, "Hmm, I don't think so".

[00:10:12] Alexa: Yeah.

[00:10:12] Tyson: I'm like, I don't wanna work for that, that's a red flag for me.

[00:10:14] Alexa: Yeah. It means they tried to hire somebody else, they didn't take the job and now there calling you.

[00:10:18] Tyson: Right. Exactly.

[00:10:19] Alexa: Yeah.

[00:10:20] Tyson: And they didn't have, like, they-they didn't say that, like you know-

[00:10:22] Alexa: Right.

[00:10:22] Tyson: -they should have said something.

[00:10:23] Alexa: This Just happened to my brother, like a year ago.

[00:10:25] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:10:25] Alexa: He was like, "Oh, these like, guys, I didn't hear from them, I didn't hear from them, I didn't hear from them, and then three months later, I hear from the guy being like, "We really wanna hire you", I'm like, nope." That means the other guy in the process dragged on for-for two months didn't take the job and now they're calling you back. You're plan B.

[00:10:38] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:10:39] Alexa: Uh, it's like people aren't stupid. They know this shit, like just be honest either-

[00:10:42] Tyson: Right.

[00:10:42] Alexa: -either you're considering other candidates or you're not. Like everyone knows it's a process, like it's like dating. It's like [crosstalk]--

[00:10:48] Tyson: I don't support those, uh--

[00:10:48] Alexa: Okay.

[00:10:50] Tyson: Those are always those situations where you look back and you're like, good thing I didn't take- get that job, you know?

[00:10:54] Alexa: Yeah. Exactly-exactly, amen to that. Plus I'll have to go live in San Francisco and that's not my jam.

[00:11:00] Tyson: I've never been.

[00:11:01] Alexa: Oh, well you're not that far. Uh, it's a full city. It's not for me. I couldn't live there. I don't think I could live there. Although I don't know. It's about to get dark and it's fucking cold here, so maybe I could live there [chuckles] in the months of November to March, I reconsider my location every year.

[00:11:14] Tyson: All right, so we're switching gears and I'm gonna be taking the reins on this. I'm not gonna do this job [chuckles] justice at all, but we thought it would be fun. [laughs]

[00:11:23] Alexa: Uh, you thought it would be fun?

[00:11:26] Tyson: I thought it'd be fun.

[00:11:26] Alexa: I'm a willing participant. Uh, but this was your idea. I just wanna go on record.

[00:11:31] Tyson: Well, because we've been chatting now for what? Like 20, 21-- This will be episode-

[00:11:35] Alexa: 21.

[00:11:35] Tyson: -nu-number 21.

[00:11:36] Alexa: This is number 21. Do you know what 21 is Tyson? It's my lucky fucking number.

[00:11:40] Tyson: Oh, that's amazing.

[00:11:41] Alexa: Do you know why it's my lucky number?

[00:11:42] Tyson: Why?

[00:11:44] Alexa: I'll tell you a silly-silly, random side tangent. So when I was in high school, I was a soccer player, uh, and I was one of the better soccer players on my team. I-I played outside of high school sports so I was, you know, I was trying to be a college soccer player and I-- My lucky number was always 16. I was born on the 16th, it was just my number and when you're start- when you start on my high school team, when you start on the soccer team, you get to pick your Jersey numbers before everybody else on the team as a starter.

So my freshman year I started on the soccer team and I went in and I picked 16 and a senior had had that number the year before me. She never played. She wasn't- you know, she was kind of a bench warmer and she started crying like pretty aggressively. Like she got real upset and I-I truthfully didn't know I was just like, I'm 16.

[00:12:27] Tyson: Right.

[00:12:27] Alexa: Like, that's my number, I-I get to grab my jersey cool, and it was like this whole to do so I gave her 16 and I went and I chose another number and I chose 21 and I scored 21 goals that year.

[00:12:38] Tyson: Wow.

[00:12:39] Alexa: Boom.

[00:12:40] Tyson: That's awesome.

[00:12:40] Alexa: Karma.

[00:12:41] Tyson: My lucky number is four and it's just because when I was like, I don't know, like eight or something I went to a fishing- some sort of fishing show with my dad and there was minnow races and I picked minnow number four and I won.

[00:12:50] Alexa: I don't even know what a minnow race is, but I--

[00:12:53] Tyson: Some Canadian shit. [laughs]

[00:12:55] Alexa: Yes, yes, yes, real fucking Canadian but like yeah just awesome, geez.

[00:13:01] Tyson: So we thought [crosstalk]--

[00:13:02] Alexa: You walked right into that one.

[00:13:03] Tyson: We thought it'd be fun then for- to interview each other because we're episode 21 and it's like, who the hell even are we? I know we had our intro episode but like, that was just sort of like tip of the iceberg. So it's like, okay, like why are we even qualified to do this, speaking of hiring people, [laughs] what makes us qualified to have this podcast?

[00:13:21] Alexa: Just to be fair, I don't think we're qualified and if you're looking for our qualifications, you should stop listening.


If you've made it this far, just go on blind faith.


You get this week off- [laughs]

[00:13:34] Tyson: Yeah. I know.

[00:13:34] Alexa: -as a listener

[00:13:35] Tyson: Surprise, we know nothing about HR. [laughs]

[00:13:37] Alexa: Yeah. Truthfully I-- yeah, I was gonna say you- you're-you're the real subject matter expert here, but, uh, yeah let's let's do it. What do you wanna know, Tyson?

[00:13:45] Tyson: So again, like circling back to our previous, our-our first episode where we did the intro like how we met was through this lovely thing called People Ops Society. So you guys reached out to HR Shook and we kind of, you know, talked about partnerships and blah, blah, blah. Yeah [chuckles], you know, you're the only brand that I've ever partnered with, except once somebody sent me a free good food box so. [laughs]

[00:14:08] Alexa: Well, I feel- I feel very honored and I hope to keep my title for as long as possible.

[00:14:12] Tyson: Yeah, I don't wanna part-- I don't- I'm not really into- 'cause, uh, usually when people reach out, I'm like, I don't- I'm not into this, but I was very into POPS so.

[00:14:18] Alexa: But to be clear, if you wanna sponsor The People Problems Podcast [laughs] we take [crosstalk] paid sponsorships.

[00:14:26] Tyson: Yeah. Just to be clear, let's make that separation.

[00:14:28] Alexa: Yeah.

[00:14:29] Tyson: Um, awesome so, uh, so yeah, anyway, so first of all, what the hell is People Ops Society?

[00:14:34] Alexa: Yeah, so the People Ops Society is born out of, uh, sort of a comedy of stories in my life that happened. One of which is I have run a business in the employee

benefit space it's a- and we can get into that later, but it's sort of a multifaceted business, and I have not only worked with People Ops professionals for the last almost decade, but I also have had lots of friends go into the profession. Like just randomly, a bunch of my good friends have gone from like, oh, head of customer success to head of people or, oh, you know, whatever was at this startup kind of fell, you know, HR and all the functions fell under me, I actually wanna do this let me go jump into HR.

So I've had a lot of people get into the profession and-and two sort of things happened at once, I was posting these events, I host these events called PERKSCon, which if you guys have listened to any of our live events, uh, those were recorded at a PERKSCon event, uh, which is basically just a cool day just to come discover what you can do for your team. You know, services, benefits, perks, that kind of stuff.

So I was running these events and I continued to see people kind of like hanging out after the events would end, and I was like- like, there was one instance I remember at our Boston event a few years ago where these two women, I had not met either of them. These two women would not leave the convention center, and like they were breaking the booths down. Like I thought one of these women was gonna get taken away our pallet. Like what [chuckles], "Why are you guys still here?"

And I walked up to them and they were both absolutely lovely humans, and they said, "You know, we never get to talk about this stuff at the office. I don't really have anywhere I can go to talk to my peers like this" whoever the other woman was at the time, and a little bulb just kind of like went off in my head. I was like, that seems interesting. I was like, but there's like SHRM and there's lots of- there's like lots of professional development in HR. Like it's like this industry is like all about certifications and blah, blah, blah.

So that sort of happened, I started to see that happening in our events. And then I had a couple friends get into the industry and I would say things and very explicitly had one-one of my good friends who worked-worked for at the time was the head of people for a very prominent sort of FinTech startup in the New York space. She- she had gotten there through untraditional methods, but perfect candidate to be a head of People Ops, definitely who you want running your team.

And I said, "Oh, it's great. We both work in the HR industry now," and she looked at me and went, "Alexa, I'm not in HR." Full stop. That's where the hashtag Not HR comes from because she did not wanna be associated with HR. She was like, "No, no, no, no. I'm in People Ops," and here's how I think it's different and- and I was like, "This makes a lot of sense to me." Like, and then I was like, "Oh, well, like where do you go to meet your peers and get advice and get resources?"

And she's like, "I don't really go anywhere. I just kind of call this like old recruiter I used to know, and like, I-I just kind like talked to the people I used to work with in different functions but like, I don't wanna go to SHRM those people don't speak to me. Like I don't wanna go to, you know, HRCI and get like those- that's just not what I'm trying to do. I have a different spin on this."

And by the time those two things happened within the span of like a year, I was like, "Something's gotta give, like, we gotta create this group for these people." So we created the People Ops society launched in, uh, early 2020 so right before the pandemic started, which actually would wound up being a-a blessing and a curse, but it's just a private membership group.

So the-the idea behind the community is, uh, it is only active People Ops professionals so unlike a lot of membership associations, you cannot join it if you are a salesperson, you cannot join it if you are a broker, you cannot join it if you are a consultant. You are trying to sell People Ops to people or HR people something, you cannot be a part of the community. And then it's sort of focused around three or four different pillars.

One is just pure-pure community, right? Like there's a forum you can talk to your peers, you can post a question. We try to give people a response within a couple days if-if not, you know, 24 hours, just get your questions answered. Two is, uh, sources, there's a lot of like recreating the wheel. I've heard from this industry over the years which is just like, "Oh, I left jobs and now I need a people handbook," you know, or, Oh, I left, you know I left and now I need, you know, this-this company needs a social media policy template, and this one needs a template for this and--

A lot of the stuff that you can get on SHRM and some of the-the sort of larger organizations just, it feels like it was written in the stone age. You know, it's like, let's create it up like a people, you know, a handbook for example, that like feels like it was written in 2021. That's like got-got branding you can steal and, you know, it's written like humans wrote it and it's kind of fun, separates all the legalese out, uh, so-so resources.

And then the third piece is really around education. So everything from classes to brainstorm hosted by other other members and the whole idea is like it's for people by people. So whatever people wanna learn, we're putting courses together about and-and sometimes, you know, different members will host brainstorms. Like, "Hey, I wanna talk about, you know, diversity equity, inclusion initiatives."

Like we-we had a member host one of those this year and just got together and was like, "Here's what I did, what are you dealing with? What would you like to learn about?" And it's cool. It's-it's been a great community it's-it's continuing to grow and it's, like I said, it's really just for the people, people by the people, people.

[00:19:04] Tyson: Yeah, and it's awesome too, because, you know, much to my dismay, oftentimes, uh, HR folk might just be one person, right? So you might just be the one HR-

[00:19:12] Alexa: Yeah-yeah, a lot a team of ones.

[00:19:13] Tyson: -the one People Ops-Ops person in your- in your, um, organization. So it's a good place to go to be able to bounce ideas off people or get some advice from someone or use some resources that are already prepared to kind of get you started. But I also wanna like double click on what you've said, sort of just in general, like when I reflect on my development in HR. So going to conferences or a events or various like the HRPA conferences and stuff like that, uh, even doing my masters actually. The most that I ever got out of any of those situations was actually not the content that I was attending, right?

Like it wasn't the lecture that my prof was giving necessarily, but it was at lunchtime of when all of us People Ops people got together and we were just chit chatting and like, "Oh, I'm-I'm dealing with this at work." Or like, "What's going on with you?" And like, "Tell me more about what you do." So it's that sort of like off- off-time that- that's really the most effective. And that's what really attracted me to People Ops society was the-the community and the connection. Like I've had a few people actually reach out just being like, "Hey." Like, "I'd like to have like coffee and that sort of thing." And I've-

[00:20:18] Alexa: Yeah. I love that.

[00:20:19] Tyson: -yeah, I've met like a few people through People Ops.

[00:20:20] Alexa: Yeah. [crosstalk] I have two-- This week of just members that wanna don't chat about stuff.

[00:20:23] Tyson: Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:23] Alexa: Which is awesome. Yeah. I think- I think it's also, you know, I think the fact that it is a private-

[00:20:27] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:20:27] Alexa: -community is pretty powerful. Uh, and I'm very adamant about that. Like I'm being recorded right now so I wanna go on record as like, it will always stay in exclusive community. I have no interest in growing-

[00:20:36] Tyson: And there's no CPD point.

[00:20:37] Alexa: -like [crosstalk] like-

[00:20:38] Tyson: Like, no-- There's no-

[00:20:39] Alexa: Yeah, I know. Uh- [crosstalk] don't even give so- don't even give sort of the philosophy that's broken and the business model that's broken around some of those. I'm happy to talk about it 'cause I can wax about that all day. But I think what's really important about it is-- And-and one of the things that I'm acutely aware of, 'cause I run a business and I-I-- You know, I-- We have similar-similar things is, you know, you can't-- So-so not-not just it's private, like you're not gonna get annoyed by sales people. And like, I- look, that's really big. I get it. Like you don't wanna be bombarded with a bunch of service providers, like everything you do.

And like, I'll be the first one to say that there's too many goddamn HR consultants. Like you shouldn't need this many consultants and they're always bombarding you with crap. But the reality is like, it's also private because there's a level of sensitivity that comes with what you're dealing with. So we created this community as like purely a safe place. Like you can ask a question and you are asking the question of your contemporaries. So you are not asking a public forum a question about a reduction in force. You are not asking a public forum about--

And-and then what happens is I think because communities like this don't really exist, is the people don't-- They just don't ask. Right? Or they just- they sort of retreat into sort of, you know, quiet circles, or, "Hey, let me ask our lawyer." And it's like, "I don't know if you want your lawyer's advice on some of this shit." You know. Uh, it's probably not the right person, but it is private. It is not going to be shared. And so one of the things that we introduced, uh, recently, I think should probably takes-takes some hold here in the future is like, you can post anonymously.

[00:22:04] Tyson: Mm.

[00:22:05] Alexa: And so you can ask a question that is not-- You don't have to fear is going to come back to you because you're the head of, you know, people at a 600 person-

[00:22:13] Tyson: Exactly.

[00:22:13] Alexa: -growing startup that everybody's heard the name of. Like you can ask. Uh, and-and the only reason we allow anonymous posting is because it is a closed community 'cause it's like, it's just us in here. And we know as moderators if someone is- sort of we can mark comments with points and if you get a bunch of points, we can kick you out. Like we can- we can police it appropriately. And you know, people will ask questions and be like, "Hey, my-- ." You know, someone just asked a question that was like, "My company's thinking about doing this." Like, 'This swag that's sort of like unachievable and elitist across the teams." Like, "What do we do?"

And the person posted it anonymously because they probably don't want a bunch of people to know like, "Hey, this is my company that is doing something fucking stupid, but I need to talk-

[00:22:53] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:22:53] Alexa: -about it to try to see if I could have a stop doing it." And so there's just these sensitivities that you start to pay attention to that I think are very specific to this particular job function and this pa-particular career. Plus I just think it-it goes on, you know-- I'm-I'm the biggest evangelist of like everyone in this industry is just an unsung hero and I've just seen it enough that I think it's time to change it.

[00:23:12] Tyson: Yeah, no definitely that-that o-opportunity to ask, um, confidentially is-- And anonymously is super important. 'Cause like as HR and People Ops, like we do have access to a lot of information and like a lot of what we deal with is the sticky stuff. Like it's not always like-

[00:23:26] Alexa: What.

[00:23:27] Tyson: -you know, what is printed on your investor's report and that sort of thing. [laughs]

[00:23:31] Alexa: Or which HRIS system is less shitty.

[00:23:32] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:23:33] Alexa: You know? Like, okay, cool. Go ask a Slack channel.

[00:23:35] Tyson: Right.

[00:23:35] Alexa: You know?

[00:23:36] Tyson: Exactly, exactly. Okay. And then wait, so you've alluded to your other business, sort of, just in like our discussion so far. So let's talk with that 'cause you guys have had a few events recently, so how-how-- How's that gone?

[00:23:48] Alexa: It's-it's great. I-I love events. I think they're super-super fun and I-- While the pandemic did a number, uh, on us, I think we will- we will survive and we will-

[00:23:57] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:23:58] Alexa: -come back- come back stronger.

[00:23:58] Tyson: Oh, people are just itching to get back to events. So like they--

[00:24:01] Alexa: Oh, yeah. And the people that did attend the ones we had were like all over, man.

[00:24:05] Tyson: Oh, yeah- oh yeah. [crosstalk] They need the hugs and the smooches like I'm-- Can I [unintelligible 00:24:09]-

[00:24:09] Alexa: Yeah.

[00:24:09] Tyson: -[crosstalk] is over. Okay. Okay. [laughs]

[00:24:11] Alexa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So our business perks has two- basically two-two business units. So the first one is the perks conventions which I started, uh, seven years ago now, uh, I believe is seven-- Might even be eight.

[00:24:20] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:24:20] Alexa: I might be dating myself. But basically very quickly, uh, in working in the benefit space just discovered like there's- there was not-- Again, you know, this was almost a decade ago when like foosball tables and kegerators were like all the rage.

Employers did not have a good way to discover all the other services that were coming to market that were available to them. So I remember-- I-I remember one of my first events is I went to a-a local SHRM chapter event here and I-- You know, I was mentioning something about a group I used to work with called 2020 onsite optometry which is another business I co-founded many, many moons ago.

Everyone in the room just kind of looked at me like I had eight heads. Like they were like, "Oh, you must be selling me something." And I was like, "Actually, I'm trying to give you free preventative healthcare." Like, "What's wrong with this is covered by your insurance." Like-- And I just- I just-- It was very clear to me very quickly that the employer market had not been given an avenue to say, "Hey, come shop for your team." But there was increasing pressure on the "culture" because of sort of the Googlization of the workforce, right?

So all of a sudden it was like, "Oh we need dry cleaning. Oh we need manicures. Oh we need foosball. Oh we need, like kegerators. Oh we all these things." And then employers were just like, "I don't know how to keep up and I don't even know what to Google."

And so we created the perks conventions as like a little bit of a-a sort of HR event on its head where we were like, "You're gonna come shop for your team for the day. We're gonna show you every service that directly benefits your employees and we're gonna make it fun." So we have a live DJ at every event, we give out champagne in every event, we have an open bar at every event. Every vendor that works with us at our, uh, events gives a- gives something away. It's experiential.

We have not a ton of-of sort of speakers, but the ones that we have are sort of highly curated around. Okay, if you're gonna come hang out with us for the day and shop for your team, let's discuss how you-- You know, how you choose the right services for your team because you can't-- You know, you can't choose everything. I mean there's hundreds and hundreds of brands in the B2B space now. So that was my first foray into-into it and then we have a software product because if there's another thing I know it's that, uh, speaking of shitty tools-

[00:26:11] Tyson: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:12] Alexa: -you know, HR teams don't get great avenues to communicate. Uh, they're usually stuck with pretty crappy tools to do it. Things like newsletters, intranets, HRIS

softwares, like things that aren't really known for being savvy and super personal and like the things employees expect now. So we have a-a software called Showcase that basically is sort of your employee front door that allows the employee to get personalized updates about their benefits and the benefits that they care about. Direct Access 24/7/365 to every benefit. So not just like healthcare and whatever, but, you know, if-- Yeah-- I think the average employer has of like six or seven systems that combi-combines all their benefits-

[00:26:45] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:26:45] Alexa: -and perks and services and all the things. And so we make that one front door for the employee that it talks directly to the employee and says, "Hey, Alexa, you care about the fertility benefit here's an update about the fertility benefit. Tyson. Um, you're done with fertility in the moment-

[00:26:57] Tyson: [laughs]

[00:26:57] Alexa: -you really care about the gym membership and the meditation, like we'll give you updates about those, right? And then you can host, you know, enrollment events and-and live events in the system. And then it's sort of a communication tool, uh, as well as a-a pretty powerful data tool. So one of the things that always has frustrated me about this industry, again, sort of with the benefits stint is like, employees aren't using [laughs] like 85% of what you buy for them and that's fucked. So, and there's-there's a couple reasons for that. One you're buying the wrong shit for 'em. Two, you're not telling them what you-- What-what they have. They don't-- They just are grossly unaware of what you're offering.

[00:27:29] Tyson: It's so confusing, right? Like it's-it's impossible really to breakdown.

[00:27:31] Alexa: It's-- And it doesn't need to be.

[00:27:33] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:27:33] Alex: It doesn't need to be. It can be so easy. Like it's 2021.

[00:27:36] Tyson: I-I was-

[00:27:37] Alexa: Could be so easy.

[00:27:37] Tyson: I was taking my benefits, so right now, um, I'm sure as people are listening to this, they're thinking like, "Ah, annual role it's-it's open- [crosstalk]

[00:27:43] Alexa: It's open enrollment season. [crosstalk]

[00:27:44] Tyson: -season. So I was picking mine and I was looking at the comparison. We had like three options let's say with our, like, uh, the benefits provider. And I actually-- So one of them was free. Uh, no, one of them I got like a credit, the other one was free and the other one would cost me money. And I actually couldn't tell the difference between the one that was gonna gimme a credit versus the one that was free. Like I-- I'm sitting there reading it and I'm like, "I don't know what the difference is here except here I get like a $100 more worth of massage." So I'm gonna pick that 'cause it's still free. Like it-it was so confusing and-

[00:28:17] Alexa: Right.

[00:28:17] Tyson: -it's so like unclear and not like-- I don't know.

[00:28:20] Alexa: Yeah. So confusing.

[00:28:21] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:28:21] Alexa: And then you're like, "Oh, I didn't know you offered me eight weeks of nutrition coaching." Or "Oh, I didn't know I had, uh, you know, a hotline-

[00:28:28] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:28:28] Alexa: -to a call for crisis like- [crosstalk]

[00:28:29] Tyson: And-and you don't-

[00:28:29] Alexa: -there's so much shit people don't know it-

[00:28:30] Tyson: You don't know-

[00:28:31] Alexa: -so broken.

[00:28:32] Tyson: -even like, I, uh, obviously I just had a baby and when I got there I had to fill out some sort of forms for like insurance. And I didn't know that I got a free private room, but I did. So-so far I haven't got the bill from the hospital, but like, I-- If you ev-- Even if you look at my insurance, it does not say anything on there about a free private room. So-

[00:28:51] Alexa: To be clear, uh, uh, the insurance industry is fucked-

[00:28:53] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:28:53] Alexa: -and it is designed for you to see it when they want-

[00:28:55] Tyson: Right.

[00:28:55] Alexa: -you to see it and not know it's there when they don't want you to use it-

[00:28:57] Tyson: Right, right, right, right.

[00:28:58] Alexa: -but that's a whole different conversation. I wish I was smart enough and patient enough to take on the health insurance industry directly. But instead, I've decided to fix the problem of employers wasting a bunch of money on benefits nobody's using-

[00:29:08] Tyson: Right.

[00:29:09] Alexa: -by allowing them to better communicate it. And also like-like the time is now. Like you wanna talk about all this crap we've talked about in the news and the last few weeks, it's like, you know, you're-- If you're not getting any optimization out of your benefits right now, like, you're fuck if you're hiring. You're fuck if you're trying to keep people.

[00:29:23] Tyson: Yeah. 'cause there are companies that are like basically paying for your home office, like to-to set you up-

[00:29:29] Alexa: Yeah.

[00:29:29] Tyson: -in your home office. Like there's insane.

[00:29:32] Alexa: They're paying for it all-

[00:29:33] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:29:33] Alexa: -kinds of stuff.

[00:29:33] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:29:33] Alexa: And if you're not taking advantage of that because you don't know-

[00:29:36] Tyson: Childcare.

[00:29:36] Alexa: -about it child or because it's the wrong stuff. Like I see- I see two things. I see employers who do the-- All the right things. They spend a lot of money a lot of time. The benefits teams are rock solid in terms of understanding exactly what they want for their population. And they just really struggle to get it in front of them in a way that's-that's tangible to the employees so the employee actually pays attention to it and doesn't go, "Oh, an-an HR newsletter." Delete.

And then the second piece is I see employers just be super fucking lazy and go, "Oh, well, I'll just do the latest and greatest thing." Or, "Oh, I'll just do what's easy. Or, "Give me a package of benefits that I don't have to think about." And you have to-- like you-- The jig is up on that shit.

You gotta be more bespoke now. And so, you know, the platform will basically tell you as you use it, like, these are the things you should be offering to your employees based on their demographic and based on their interests. Like, hey, you've got people searching for pet insurance. You don't have any fucking pet insurance. Like, saddle up, here's some pet insurance options.

[00:30:27] Tyson: How do you feel about spending accounts?

[00:30:29] Alexa: Which type of spending account?

[00:30:31] Tyson: Okay, so I-I purposely left that question broad, 'cause I-I wanted to get your inputs on like-- Okay, so oftentimes, like with spending accounts, like you get-- are given a dollar amount. Well, this is how I see it, given a dollar amount, you can allocate it in ways that you want. So like--

[00:30:45] Alexa: Yep. When you say spending accounts here in the States, that's also a healthcare term. So I'm like, are-are we talking about like health savings accounts? What are talking about here? So if you're talking about like allowance, I would call that allowances.

[00:30:55] Tyson: Okay.

[00:30:55] Alexa: Sometimes people put that in the like, the-the rewards category. Look, I think-- You know, and I-I don't know if we intended for this interview to be like my phil-- my-my philosophy on how people buy benefits for their employees, but there's sort of two ends of the spectrum, right? One-one is like, we need to be highly curated, and we need to handpick every single thing that we do as an employer, right? And it needs to-- And in a perfect world, it's always exactly perfect for the demographic that we have, right? So it's probably kind of fluid.

And on the other side of the spectrum, you've got, like, just, here's $100 a month, do whatever the fuck you want with it, call it perks, you can pick- you can pick what you want 'cause I don't- I don't know what you want, and you want- and you want, you all want different things, right? So one is like, all individual choice, and one is all employer choice. And the answer is like, you kind of need both. I think most spending accounts are- it's kind of like PEOs, which here--

I don't know if you have those in Canada, but here in the States, it's basically like-- It's like group buying power, but they get- you get to say like, "Oh, we have 50 employees. I as a 50-person employer cannot offer, you know, health insurance at a rate that would be comparable to a 3m000-person employer, but they put us all in a group and now I have the same benefits as a much, much larger group.

And you're stuck with the benefits that are in that offering, right? So same thing with the allowances. Like you're stuck with whatever the allowance offers you. And I-I think it's an attempt to try to say, "I don't know what you want, I can't be perfect. Here's a really easy way for me to give you some flexibility." And I think that some of that's great. Like I'm sure there's some employees who have like a-

[00:32:18] Tyson: Yeah.

[00:32:18] Alexa: -Netflix subscription covered by those services they're stoked about or-- You know, I-I think there's a fair amount of that. I don't- I don't think it is hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in value, which is how much employers are spending on benefits, right? The average employer in the United States spends over $30,000 a year above salary and benefits.

So I don't know that you're gonna get that amount of lift if you just give everybody a fucking gift card. But at the same time, like it's really hard to curate the experience perfectly for your group. What I think is sort of the happy medium here is like you give people little allowances, like for the fun stuff like Netflix and-and whatever. Like and you give them, you know, something small and manageable based on your size and you make sure to remind them all the time that their Netflix subscription is paid for by their employer.

And then on the other side, you have to be really deliberate about the stuff that you're offering, right? Like a- like an- like a spending account is not going to fix like my employer asks me to work 18 hours a day and travel four days a week and doesn't like doesn't-

[00:33:13] Tyson: Yeah. And--

[00:33:13] Alexa: -take care of my lifestyle at all.

[00:33:14] Tyson: So I will also say like--


And the reason why I'm gonna stop this is because I don't think any more that like a-a spending account or an allowance like that is like a-as much of a retention as it-it once was, right? Like, it almost becomes--

[00:33:28] Alexa: It's not.

[00:33:29] Tyson: Right. Right.

[00:33:29] Alexa: You have to have the foundation underneath that. Like really fucking on point. And then [crosstalk] people are like, "Oh, yeah. The $20 gift card. Great."

[00:33:33] Tyson: Because- 'cause people have kind of become entitled to that spending account. They're like, "No, this is just like, you know, something that like I should get," and then it's not like something that is like seems special anymore. So what is like some of the coolest perks that you've seen?

[00:33:45] Alexa: Oh, man. I get- I get asked this shit all the time. [laughs]

[00:33:48] Tyson: Come on.


[00:33:49] Alexa: Like never-never ready on the spot.

[00:33:49] Tyson: It's like the-the quintessential question that I needed to ask you. Okay?

[00:33:54] Alexa: I know, right? I know, I know. Well, this is what my team is good at, right? This is what- where-where experts say this is a brand. Not me personally, no, I-I-- We-we deal with these guys all the time. So, I mean, all kinds of-- There's all kinds of awesome shit. Actually, there's all kinds of like cool behavioral health apps. There's so much stuff around improving like the- just the healthcare process, at least in the United States, that's super cool.

I think there are- you know, there's some- there are some cool innovations, like AR and VR-based stuff that's like occupational support and therapies and-and cool stuff. Like, I think anything that directly im-impacts an employee's lifestyle is pretty gangster right now. Obviously, mental health and telehealth were the big ones during the pandemic. Before that, it was financial education. Before that, it was like food and office perks. Uh, I've seen my friends [crosstalk]

[00:34:37] Tyson: Yeah. Education is like not a thing anymore, right? It's really not.

[00:34:40] Alexa: No, no. Nope. I wouldn't say so much financial education. But again, to your point, like one of the things I always- that I've-I've always been fascinated by in this industry is like, you can't be all things to all people, right? Like you have to decide what your brand really stands for. And it sounds fucking cheesy, but I don't mean it to sound cheesy. I mean, like if you're Equinox and all you offer is like a gym membership at the base-level to your employees, like you don't really live and breathe what you do.

Like you should have- like they should have personal training sessions with your best people, they should get like dollars off at the like the healthy bar, like the CEO should be at lunch next to- next to you on the treadmill, right? And the cultural understanding is like everybody takes a break to work out during the day. We're fucking Equinox, you know. And I can't speak-- Like I don't know anything about Equinox's culture. That was just a brand I was talking about earlier. So they may do all of those things.

But I find the biggest disconnect is that brands like, what they're offering has nothing to do with what they believe in as a team, and/or they're offering a bunch of crap, and because the tools in this space are so bad, they don't have any data to say, "Hey, we've been offering this for four years and nobody fucking uses it. Or we've been offering this for four years nobody knows about it. Now that they know about, it a bunch of them use it." Right? Like there's just no data, so these poor benefits professionals just wind up like in the fucking dark reaching around try-trying to find the golden switch, and it's like-- It's just a crapshoot.

So anyway, that's-that's, uh,- that's the perk-side of the house and then obviously POPS is just [inaudible 00:36:00]

[00:36:00] Tyson: Yeah, for sure. You know what-

[00:36:02] Alexa: Yeah. Something I really enjoy doing.

[00:36:02] Tyson: -I feel like we'll be like top entertainment, is for like you and I to like sleuth at like a SHRM conference or like an HRPA conference and like-

[00:36:14] Alexa: You wanna- you wanna sneak in?

[00:36:14] Tyson: -vlog-vlog our like reaction. [laughs]

[00:36:19] Alexa: Oh my god, I-- So, I got an email today. So everyone knows. I don't know if-if-if, uh, HRPA does this or "Herpa", which kind of sounds like herpes, which makes it even better. HRPA, uh, does the free tote bag. But here in the states the SHRM tote bag is like a fucking meme. Like they always are trying to get you to join their useless membership with a tote bag. [laughs] And it's like-- it's really bad like it's-it's really outdated.


[00:36:43] Tyson: We don't even get a tote.

[00:36:45] Alexa: So-so yesterday I got- I got it. They're-- They have a new giveaway. They have a new giveaway which is a bento box. So if you join SHRM you as-- I think it's on the national level, you will now get a plastic SHRM bento box, because that justifies the $300 membership.


[00:37:03] Tyson: That's like a lunch box? With like pockets in it, like the squares in it?

[00:37:06] Alexa: Yeah, yeah. Yes. Literally. It's literally like a- like a fucking lunch box. But-- All right. The-the problem with those- with those organizations is, I know we shit on them a lot, Tyson, but having been near and dear to them and-and sort of running a quasi competitor.

There's a couple things. One, they're just fucking old. Like SHRM has been around for 60 years. Like, and I wanna- I wanna give 'em props for that. Like that's no fucking joke. Uh, and look, they have really big, important functions that groups like, you know, smaller-smaller startups like ours can't-can't handle, right? Like they lobby regularly in Washington. You know, they also- they also make as a nonprofit, I mean, "make" millions and millions of dollars a year." Like those are very big, old bloated organizations that do- that do have a lot of power, but have just sort of lost touch, I think, with like what we call the new guard of-of-of HR, which is just a lot like, POPS is about the [crosstalk]

[00:37:56] Tyson: It's like every organization that's been around for 60 years. [laughs]

[00:37:59] Alexa: We're only interested in working with-- Yeah, we're-we're only-- Like POPS members are largely like teams of one to six at something like a sub-1000 person companies that are typically growing. They're usually in their first couple of roles in the- in the space, if not brand new to People Ops, but not necessarily new in their career. So we're really focused on being like this is where you start your career and grow your mid-career in-in People Ops with the idea that eventually like, you'll graduate.

And so that leads me to my second point. Like the other reason those things get so bloated, is they're on this fucking hamster wheel of like, you gotta do your continuing ed credits. So you justify this annual membership 'cause you're like, "I don't want to let the numbers- the letters next to my name lapse. And then I have to go do a certain number of things where I have to spend more money. I have to pay $120 to go that luncheon to get those credits. I gotta pay--" You know, and because most of those are insular events, right?

And so they just keep you on this fucking hamster wheel. And then they got it- then they give you this bullshit about, "Oh, you're certified in HR." It's like, What the fuck does that mean? In theory, what you should be certified in skills, right?

[00:38:50] Tyson: Right.

[00:38:50] Alexa: So it POPS like we don't give you-- You know, there's no continuing ed. Like if you earn a credit and take a badge, like that's yours. Like, it's like a fucking boy scout merit badge. Like it's yours, keep it. I can't take that away from you. You have the knowledge. And they're [crosstalk] just stuck in their cycles.

[00:39:02] Tyson: Yeah. And this is-- So this is where HRPA and SHRM are gonna start losing people because as a millennial, there is-- So I'm down. I'll-I'll do the continuing ed. Look, I'll-I'll go to a course, I'll do something. Like I'm-I'm-

[00:39:15] Alexa: Lot's of people do.

[00:39:16] Tyson: -I'm-I'm down for continuing ed. What I refuse to do as a proper millennial, is paperwork. I would rather keel over and die than have to do the amount of paperwork that's involved with submitting your CPD hours to HRPA. And that, my friends, is why I am no longer a mem-member. Because I refuse to take that valuable time out of my day to complete their fucking forms. And if you fill them out wrong, you're screwed and you-you don't get it, and you have to pay again to resubmit them. And like I'm not- I'm not down with the paperwork game. Like--

[00:39:50] Alexa: Yeah, I mean, you have to pay the offer credits. You have to pay, it's just like-- It's a racket. [crosstalk] Like I think they've gotten too-too comfortable.

[00:39:55] Tyson: I did my master's last year, which was-- or I guess-- I don't even know when I-I guess that was 2020, I graduated. So that would've been full-on all my, all my points, right? Then I'm like, okay, it's time, it's time to submit my-my hours to CHRPA. I took one look at the form. I lapsed. I no longer have CHR behind my, I'm not doing it. I-I-I let the letters behind my name fall 'cause I refused to fill out those forms.

And they've been sending me mail and stuff, trying to like retain me. And I'm like, honestly, I'm too far in my career. But also caveat to this conversation, I always say this when I talk about these things is like you do you. So like if you're a member of one of these associations like you've gotta do you, take a look around, see if it works for you, whatever. Um, because I did it. Like they come to the colleges, right? And they sign you up for a real discount and then my company paid for it. I would- I would never spend a dime on HRPA but my company always paid for it. So I'm like, Hey, this is great. So you do you and figure out what like if-if-if you like it but like this is just, you know.

[00:40:55] Alexa: I just get frustrated 'cause people will be like, I really wanna join POPS. But I, you know, I only have enough dollars in my budget for a SHRM membership and my old, my-my boss knows what SHRM in- SHRM is but has never heard of POPS. And I'm like, you need more fucking dollars in your professional development budget. Like, full stop. SHRMs like 300 bucks. Like it, you, that should not be the end all be all of your professional development budgets. That makes me sad, you know. So I, look, I think there's room for, for all the fish in the sea.

I think you're right. It's up to what people want. Um, we purely started this group out of like just a-a sheer necessity from the people we know and love that are in the- in the industry. And I'm super grateful for it 'cause I'm- I couldn't be closer to this sort of profession and I fucking love it and I'm stoked and led me to people like you and like I just- nothing would make me happier than if everyone in the world just went like, oh, I never appreciated my people function before, and like, it really is super fucking important.

And-and my goal- my-my dream actually, I think I told you this on our Instagram live interview was actually to make the People Ops profession like the mean girl profession but in a good way. So like your People Ops team walks in your organization and people go like, "Oh, those are the cool girls. Like, oh, shit. Like I wanna hang out with them". Like they always know the best stuff and they always make sure like the coolest things happen. Like that should be the reputation of your people team. It should not be like, "Oh, shit, HR is here. Don't say anything." Like it shouldn't be like that.

[00:42:16] Tyson: I agree.

[00:42:17] Alexa: Um, and so that's-that's the whole mission behind it is like, let's fucking change that. And, you know, it's- it doesn't happen overnight but, you know, we got hundreds of members and people are talking and-and, you know, lots of people have been supportive and it's been super fun. You know, I just can't wait to-to start doing shit in person and putting everybody together literally.

[00:42:32] Tyson: Yeah. Amen to that, sister. Awesome. Sweet. So with that [crosstalk]

[00:42:37] Alexa: Yeah. Anything else you wanna talk about?

[00:42:39] Tyson: No, I don't think so. I think that pretty much sums it up. That was fun. I'm like not nearly as good at interviewing as you but I gave it my best shot.

[00:42:47] Alexa: Well, you're- you wanted to interview. So I-I gave you a shot. I hope- I hope everyone [crosstalk]

[00:42:51] Tyson: Guys, now go give our podcast five stars just to show Alexa how good of an interviewer I am.

[00:42:55] Alexa: Go give our podcast five stars and, yeah, we'll drop a discount link somewhere 'cause this is a shameless pod for the people of our society, you know. We'll drop a discount in the- in the episode description but yeah, Tyson, you're a fucking Rockstar. And truthfully like POPS wouldn't be here without you. So, thanks for all your support. And uh, I guess we'll talk to you goons next week.

[00:43:12] Tyson: Goodbye.

[00:43:14] Alexa: This episode was executive produced by me, Alexa Baggio with audio production by [unintelligible 00:43:17] Harmonies. Our intro music was also done by the wonderful [unintelligible 00:43:20] Harmonies. You can find more information about us and future episodes at peopleproblemspod.com or follow us at People Problems Pod on all things social.

[00:43:29] [END OF AUDIO]

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