We had a guest, but a storm in the California high desert had other plans. Listen up for a general discussion on some major happenings in the wonderful world of People Ops lately.
[00:00:00] Speaker: Warning. This podcast is about the realities of working in People Operations. This is not a stuck-up PC compliance-based or employment law podcast about stuffy, outdated HR practices. Shit will get real here, and we assume no responsibility.
This is the People Problems podcast with Alexa Baggio and Tyson Mackenzie.
[00:00:41] Alexa: Tyson, how are we doing?
[00:00:43] Tyson: Good. Doing good. Here's the big news. We got to 10k followers on HR Shook.
[00:00:49] Alexa: You're officially maybe the most famous person in HR.
[00:00:51] Tyson: Pretty much.
[00:00:52] Alexa: Besides Adam Grant, but he doesn't really count. That's cheating. The academics don't count.
[00:00:57] Tyson: It was big because when I started the account, first of all, I never thought I'd ever get to that many. That was it for me, that was the goal. I just was like, "Maybe I can just wrap it up. This is it."
[00:01:09] Tyson: Please don't.
[00:01:10] Alexa: "But I won't because I'm having too much fun." As a huge thank you, and I'm going to do totally shameless plug, I did 10% off hrshook.com If you go to hrshook.com, the discount code is 10 thousand, it's 10,000, the word. Use that and you get 10% off my merch.
[00:01:27] Alexa: 10 T-H-O-U-S-A-N-D.
[00:01:31] Tyson: If you can figure out that very complicated riddle, you can get 10% off the entire website for, I don't know how long I'm going to keep it up for. Go on now.
[00:01:43] Alexa: Amazing. We got the People Problem swag going anyway. At some point, we'll have to drop an equals swag shout out, a shameless swag shout out to People Problem swag because we're way overdue for that. All right, sweet. Anything else new in your world?
[00:01:55] Tyson: No. How about you, what's going on with you?
[00:01:58] Alexa: Oh, man, I don't know. All the things and nothing at the same time. Nothing in my world changes, but I'm always busy and swamped. It's like a perpetual Tuesday. My life is a perpetual Tuesday right now.
[00:02:09] Tyson: This is a very special Tuesday because it's actually Twos-day, you know? You know you know? It's like this whole two, two, two, two, thing that's going on today.
[00:02:18] Alexa: I actually didn't recognize that. I know we're recording on the 22nd, and I went to write some notes during a call today and I went, "Holy fuck, it's two, two two two two, two." Oh, my God. How did I not know that?
[00:02:28] Tyson: Bro, you know I know I made a wish for the world at 2:22 today.
[00:02:31] Alexa: I know. I wonder what the stars say. Actually, I don't even want to open that.
[00:02:35] Tyson: No, let's not.
[00:02:36] Alexa: Let's not. Moving on, let's do some POPs in the news.
Our POPs in the news article this week is, the headline is how HR could be implicated in allegations of toxic culture at Activision Blizzard. Not a long article, but for those of you who do not know what Activision Blizzard is, or don't know the name, because why would you if you're not a gamer, this is the company that created World of Warcraft, which is basically, arguably the most famous video game in the world. They're currently trying to do a deal with Microsoft.
Microsoft is trying to buy them for a ridiculous amount of money, $68 billion, or something I think it is. It's interesting, because, we talk a lot about, HR is not the fun police and they have to be sitting on your board and all these things. This is the other side of that coin. The article goes on to outline that basically, the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing or DFEH has brought a lawsuit against the company that alleges that, "Women were subjected to constant sexual harassment, including groping comments and advances."
They actually have already settled a lawsuit, basically saying that from a different group, US Equal Opportunity Employment Commission, which everybody's heard of, basically an $18 million settlement for pervasive sexual harassment and discrimination charges. It's just more of the same, which is a little crazy. The crazy part about this is two things. The article mentions that the toxic culture, former female employees allege that the workplace was rife with "casual sexism."
Moreover, the HR department was known to know about all of these issues, and they were seen as an extension of just the executive team. They were doing the executive team's bidding and they just didn't do anything about it, and that's really the issue and that's why they're being sued. It also says that former employees reported that the HR department had high turnover and seemed to be little more than an appendage of its leadership. Just like doing their bidding. Basically just outlining that employees had little trust in HR and basically you couldn't get anything done. Now it's backfiring on them and people are filing lawsuits. Discuss.
[00:04:56] Tyson: First of all, it's disgusting to think that there's still stuff like that happening. Why? Why is there still just blatant sexual harassment in the workplace? I don't understand. Maybe it comes with that world, I don't know enough about it.
[00:05:10] Alexa: Just to say, I'm going to venture to guess there's a lot of dudes running that company, but I could be wrong.
[00:05:13] Tyson: I don't know enough about it, anyway. That last part that you mentioned there is really what I want to focus on, is this idea that the HR employees were close to the alleged harassers. HR turning a blind eye and working for the company and trying to cover their asses versus doing anything, this is sadly very common. Things like this happen all the time. Investigations are done in a way that works for the benefit of the company versus the benefit of the person, and it's absolutely terrible, and it shouldn't happen.
That's what upsets me, is because although, I don't know about this culture. I don't know about this specific genre of workplace, but I know that stuff like that does happen, and maybe not to that extent. Oftentimes, people in HR saying like, "I'm here to work for the company, and blah, blah, blah," but if a complaint comes forward, you do have to look into it, and actually take action on the bad players. It's just disgusting that this sort of thing happens in 2022.
[00:06:21] Alexa: I'm just going to throw our hashtag back at this one and say, #NotHR. This is why people don't want to be fucking associated with this anymore. Because this sucks. Look, I'm of two minds about this, one is, I do agree with you. I feel like the labor law industry almost needs a Hippocratic Oath. They need a version of this where if you are seeing it, and this is why these guys were being sued. It's like if you're seeing this covering up a sexual harassment complaint that's legitimate, there should be real fucking ramifications for that. You shouldn't legally be allowed to do that.
Then it unbinds you as the HR person, you're like, "Look, I can represent you to an extent as the employer, but when this shit starts coming up, I can't fucking help you. I can't be the one that's just sweeping this under the rug. I can, however, make sure that this stuff doesn't happen and manage it better for you when it does." The other thing and the cynic in me, again, I think we've had some articles like this before. The cynic in me always goes, of course, this is the fucking article that comes out. Of course, this is the one about HR that everybody reads and calls out.
Also, this shit always happens around acquisitions and always happens when stuff like this is coming up. Either someone is trying to sabotage the market price to save Microsoft a bunch of money, someone is pulling, I think that's the plot of The Gentlemen, by the way, the Guy Ritchie movie. Either someone is pulling some crazy shit to try to cheapen the cost of this company for Microsoft, or something happens when these big events happen for companies like this, and then all of a sudden, a reporter gets in there and goes, "Oh, I'm just going to go to fucking town with bad disgruntled employee reports."
I always wonder in these situations, would this have come out if they weren't selling to Microsoft? Or is this actually just the only time people can get their voice heard? Maybe there's so few women at this company that they've tried before and nothing happened. I'm always curious about what circumstances did this come to light under.
[00:08:15] Tyson: It's pretty significant though. Didn't it say it's $18 million, or something?
[00:08:20] Alexa: That was the prior lawsuit. This one is who knows how much? The prior settlement was $18 million. If you're worth 70 billion, that's not a whole lot of money.
[00:08:30] Tyson: Just to wrap this in terms of people who are listening to this and thinking like, "What should HR do?" This is what it's actually really helpful when a complaint comes forward like this, you have someone else who's not the main business partner investigating it. If you're a big enough company, where you can have an employee relations team that focuses specifically on investigating, so it's totally unbiased and you're not seen as the person who's cozy-cozy with the manager.
We do have biases when we work closely with managers, and if you're not that big, then at least just get another HR colleague to investigate it. Or maybe you want to, if it's this big of a thing that's going on, invest in having an external investment to it.
[00:09:10] Alexa: I would almost always argue you should do this externally. Keep that shit out of the politics of the company.
[00:09:16] Tyson: 100%. It really just depends on where you are, and what jurisdiction is. A lot of places legally, you have to do that, or the employees can require you to do that. You have to legally do it. Definitely try to keep this as removed as possible so you aren't that HR person who's like, "Oh, they're buddies with the manager." Sometimes we do investigations that we don't find proof of stuff. We don't want to go down that road if you don't have to.
[00:09:37] Alexa: Just remember, for all you little fucks who are harassing people at the workplace, if you don't want it on the front page of The New York Times, or HR Brew, in this case, don't fucking put it in writing, because I'm sure there's going to be some nasty shit that comes out of this that people are like, "Oh, man, I didn't realize they were going to get my slack messages." This stuff never happens in a vacuum. If this was just people being like, "He said, she said," I'm not sure it would be getting as much press.
[00:10:00] Tyson: Yes, no, this is obviously a big deal [inaudible 00:10:02]
[00:10:02] Alexa: Or have a lawsuit. Yes, it's gross, but anyway, HR is not for this shit guys. Jesus. All right, moving on. We're just going to pivot here because our guest got completely wiped out by mother nature and has been wiped off the grid for this week. Quite literally, potentially, but teaser for next week, we have an awesome experience design expert and "world builder" as our guest and we sincerely hope she's okay and safe in the storm that has clearly hit her town and knocked out her ability to meet with us tonight so more POPs in the news.
Another one is ERGs take extra work. Should employees be paid extra for participating? This one's interesting. These are all from a section of HR Brew that I grabbed that I thought was interesting. There's very limited, good news channels in this industry so there's only like three or four I tend to go to but this one's interesting because, for people who don't know, ERGs are employee resource groups, they are things like black employee groups, female employee groups, LGBTQ employee groups, they can be around racial groups, ethnic groups, cultural groups, interest groups, they can be all kinds of things.
[00:11:24] Tyson: The idea is like they're grassroots.
[00:11:22] Alexa: They're grassroots.
[00:11:23] Tyson: The employees start them.
[00:11:25] Alexa: Exactly, and they're intended really to just make sure that the organization has the voices of that group represented and in some cases, ERGs are in most cases when they're formal, they are supported by at least some leadership member. Some member of leadership will typically sponsor an ERG if it's big enough. Sometimes they'll be given budget to do things for that group or for that group to do things with the larger organization. I don't believe that ERG should ever be exclusive regardless of what their caricature is or their character is. Like if it's an African American employees group or something like they should be doing things that include all employees.
For the most part, they shouldn't just be paid extra to do things exclusively. That's against the point, but the point of this article and there are some really interesting stats in here is basically asking like, should you be paying these people because it's extra time. The article references some numbers that are fascinating, that said in 2022 only 5.6% of companies with ERGs provided their group leads with any compensation for work that stretches beyond their normal responsibilities but the number rose dramatically in 2021 to 28%, according to an annual survey from the diversity consultant, The Rise Journey.
It seems like people are, and I wonder how much of this has to do with what's going on in the labor market, but we'll talk about that in a second. It also mentions in the research that across 166 organizations of various sizes that were surveyed, 29%, they compensate through "professional development opportunities," 20% said they compensate through extra monetary compensation. 18% said they use a not guaranteed spot bonus and 11% said they provide company swags, 7% said they use gift cards and 2% said they subsidized the cost of related travel.
Basically, this article is trying to point out this is extracurricular. It's additional, but it's also actually good for the organization, it helps with retention, it helps with attraction. It helps with lots of DE&I initiatives. It helps with all kinds of stuff. Should we be paying these people? It goes back and forth. It makes the case for pay and the case for not, I'm not sure I have a strong feeling here, but you can read it.
[00:13:32] Tyson: I have experience with both so in a previous company, I was a participant on two employ resource groups and they were treated differently, which is really interesting. The first one was actually one that I led so I was the leader of this group. It was a developing professionals group. It was like somewhere around an ERG but anyways, the idea was that we would create events for everybody, not just like the young people in the office, it used to be called the Young Professionals Group, and then it was changed to developing because young is like not appropriate.
Anyway, so the idea was that we'd create events to help people with boosting their careers so a lot of mentorship connections and development opportunities, et cetera, et cetera. For that, it was implied that as the leader, I would get time in my work week to work dedicated to that stuff so it wasn't really, I wasn't getting anything paid extra, but I was able to claim the hours that I was working on that group.
[00:14:31] Alexa: It's a form of comp. Sure.
[00:14:32] Tyson: Yes, exactly. I could set away that time versus having to do it after work or my lunch or before work, then what's interesting is I was a member on the women's ERG, there was not that, that didn't happen even for the leaders of those groups. I don't believe there was any, it all had to be during lunch hour or after work. I've seen it done both ways and that was the same company, which is unusual.
What I've seen mostly in my experience with these ERGs is the people that work on them and them, and run them are so freaking passionate about what they do, they are usually okay with this being an extracurricular and understanding that this is something they're taking on, on top of their job. Now, the other side of that is I've seen from the HR perspective, I've seen people who come in and they're like, "I'm super overwhelmed. I got too much on my plate too much to do," or their manager will come in and be like, "This individual's got too much, they're doing too much work with all these extracurriculars."
Again, that's a bit of a challenge because it can overtake what they are here to do at work, which is their job.
[00:15:38] Alexa: Right.
[00:15:38] Tyson: That's just a few opinions.
[00:15:40] Alexa: No, it's awesome. It's also awesome that you happen to have both of those in your experience. Look, I think the article argues that these groups, the employer largely benefits from them, the ROI from creating these groups is almost all assumed by the employer. I actually would disagree with that. I would argue that a lot of the things that people used to talk about pre-COVID that mattered like social circles and support and kinship and all these things that can be a really powerful part of working together.
Spoiler alert at some point will do an episode about romantic relationships in the office and how frequent that is but a lot of the social bonding and shit that comes out of these groups is really beneficial to everybody involved. Yes, the groups are good for the employer, but people wouldn't do it if that wasn't the case. It's like a peer group. It's like a social group. It's like a social club.
[00:16:29] Tyson: Right. It's one of those symbiotic relationships, it's for everybody.
[00:16:33] Alexa: It's good in theory for everybody. I would argue that, again, I think it depends what you want to signal and I know this is like my fucking party line on everything, but what do you as an organization care about? If you want a signal to you and your prior example that you can take time out of your workday up to a certain amount for your professional development version of this, but for the women's group version of this, we just can't carve out enough time, by the way, I'm going to venture to guess that's probably 50% of your workforce would be taking time out of their day potentially.
I get how these things can be a little unruly, but what do you want to signal? Then there's also the difference. I think that it's are you participating in the group? Are you leading the group? Are you organizing the group? Let's remember in most cases successful sustainable ERGs do have leadership or executive supporter sponsorship, and they're getting some budget for their activities. They're not entirely unpaid. It's like you get to go to this event that we paid for that's above and beyond for this group of people that you are associating with or doing a thing for so there is a form of compensation, but it's--
[00:17:40] Tyson: Yes so that's different in that, usually with an ERG, there's the organizers and then they organize big events for other people to participate in. It's a question of should the organizers be getting paid because typically the events, when I'm making recommendations again, from the HR perspective if they're doing a women's group event and we want people to go to it, we always say do it during the workday versus over lunch because we don't want it to seem like something you have to do on your personal time, we want it to be so important that you can go during the workday. So everyone gets that.
[00:18:20] Alexa: Which is the signal.
[00:18:21] Tyson: Exactly and then it's usually the organizers that are working after-time or whatever, but there's almost always some budget for whether it's food, whether it's a little bit of travel, there's always budget allocated to ERGs and usually again, it's those organizers that come up with their proposal of the budget and then that leader sponsor just approves it and then they can do as they wish. Then, I don't know, I thought that it was funny the gift cards, I know it's just a small thing, but I've seen that a lot for this type of work. Paying as thanks for this type of work.
[00:18:53] Alexa: Yes. This is one of those things we talk about a lot in the stuff I do all day, which is like benefits and total rewards and all this jazz and it's like if these groups are this important and you're doing events that are big enough to require planning sessions and paid ticketing, maybe you should just have somebody that fucking does this and you pay them versus being like, "Okay, this employee volunteers, six hours of their time, and this guy's also on the committee and he does 10." Then it starts to get dicey because you're compensating potentially for various forms of work.
Then the other problem with this whole conversation is that most of these groups tend to be around minority represented interests. That's the whole fucking point basically and so the problem is that you start saying, "Oh, well we've got all these extra groups for this minority and that minority and this underserved community and this underserved population and we're asking them to do things and we're not paying for it." It's like, well, they're going to go hand in hand because that's the point of the ERG is to make that a more known community within the organization.
I don't know I think the comp thing, it depends. Are you organizing, are you not? How much are you being asked to do? Are you just being the voice? Like in college when you would get dubbed for certain extracurricular stuff. There was a really big difference between the person at the university that you liaised with, who was in charge of helping you actually do things on campus. That person was a full-time paid employee by university versus like, "Oh, I'm the leader of the Student-Athlete Advisory Committee", which I was, I was a SAAC lead.
I didn't get paid for that shit. I did it because it looked good on my resume and it was interesting. I met a lot of cool people and it was good professional development. I knew everybody on campus because of that in a lot of ways. It's a dicey conversation, but I'm glad people are bringing it up. I'm glad people are talking about it. ERGs have just all of a sudden you didn't hear about these two years ago and all of a sudden they're everywhere which is funny. They're having a resurgence.
[00:20:53] Tyson: Yes. I would definitely say they are really a good experience. You get a lot of exposure working in these types of groups as an organizer. In all my experiences, I had definitely doors open for me that I wouldn't have had I not participated.
[00:21:08] Alexa: Yes, that's the whole point. That's supposed to give visibility to these groups.
[00:21:12] Tyson: Exactly.
[00:21:13] Alexa: Yes, and I think the other thing that's interesting is in a way, it's really important that these are organic and that they're not commercial and overly paid and things that you gun for to get paid extra. That takes away from the point of the fucking group, which is you take the authenticity out of it. I've seen ERGs that are very large companies never get bigger than a dozen or two dozen people because it just starts to feel forced and it starts to feel fake and then the people who've been volunteering and have been interested, it just fizzles out. Those clicks divide and they never really come back together.
I think the question is, what are you supporting and why, and are you supporting it as an organization? Then are you unfairly asking more of certain people than others? Is it worth having a conversation about compensation? I think it's a nuanced conversation that as usual in this industry, people like to paint broad strokes with. All right. Are you ready for one more in the news?
[00:22:21] Alexa: Okay. This one, from earlier this year, it's called why companies are not, or aren't cutting back on office space. Shocking, I know everybody is talking about how, "Oh, commercial office space is going to get decimated and blah, blah, blah." Actually, it turns out that firms predict that based on this survey of business uncertainty by the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, a survey of 445 US firms in October of 2021 found that those who shifted to hybrid work were seeing a 30% or more reduction in days where employees were on site. However, these firms said they do not expect to reduce office space accordingly.
In 2022 and beyond, they ask people, how do you expect your use of the following types of physical space will change? People predicted that they would use the office 1.4% less, retail space 0.7% less, factory space 1.2% more, other spaces 1.6% more, and warehouse and storage 2.3% more.
[00:23:22] Tyson: These are so tiny.
[00:23:23] Alexa: They're teeny tiny, which I can't tell if that means that people are just oblivious because they said, "In the fall of 2021, we asked more than 12,000 US residents, once the COVID-19 pandemic has ended, which of the following would be the best fit for your views on social distancing?" 12% said they would not want to return to the office. 17% said they would do a partial return, 33% or 34% rounded up said they would do a substantial return, but avoid the subway and crowded elevators, and 37% that they would do a complete return to pre-COVID-19 activity.
I don't know, 40% of the workforce at the same time is saying they're fine to go back to the office when this is all over, firms should not be predicting that they're going to get rid of a bunch of office space. They may use it a little differently.
[00:24:11] Tyson: Imagine that plot twist. After all of this, we just go back to the way it was in 2019.
[00:24:16] Alexa: Yes, if you keep going through the data in this article, and it's not a super in-depth article, and look, it's also clearly siding research buy the fucking industry. Like CB Richard Ellis, and some of these other groups that are in the real estate industry, they did a survey of 3,600 US residents and asked, "If you could work from home two days of the week, which days would you prefer?" It is overwhelmingly Monday and Friday.
[00:24:38] Tyson: Friday, yes, of course.
[00:24:39] Alexa: Because it's a pain in the ass. It just sucks to commute on Mondays and Fridays. Everybody and their fucking mom has to do it. Traffic sucks. You're trying to get places, you only get two days off. If your Friday is long or your Monday is early, it just sucks for everybody, it's just stressful. I think the easiest thing and combat that now with everybody talking about the fucking four-day workweek like Tim Ferris is having a fucking resurrection 10 years later with that whole situation and we can do a whole episode on that and that whole phenomenon.
I have lots of thoughts on that, but it's not a coincidence that you're seeing a rise of this. It's just inconvenient to do it the way we were doing it before and people just call bullshit on wasting a bunch of time in the car doing shit the same times as the rest of the world. It's bad for everything. It's bad for traffic. It's bad for parents. It's just bad. Yes, cool. Of course, people want more flexibility on the tail ends of their week, but they still want designated space. That makes sense to me.
[00:25:39] Tyson: I am completely aligned with you in terms of the fact that we should-- being intentional about how we use the office space and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's interesting. I was listening to another podcast, completely unrelated to people operations.
[00:25:53] Alexa: I was going to say you were cheating on us. You listen to other podcasts?
[00:25:55] Tyson: No, it was more like a health and wellness podcast. Anyways, they were chatting and they were going on and on and on about how important it is for people to work together and to be together in an office, even if it just means being present with one another and blah, blah, blah, blah. They were saying, and again, it wasn't anything to do with business or anything like that. It was more of a people having to make connections and feel community. That was their spin.
[00:26:21] Alexa: Yes, man, community reduces stress. It increases longevity. None of this shit is unknown at this point. We know for a fact, the community and positive social bonds, most of which you used to get at work, literally increase your lifespan. You would literally live longer, on a cellular level it is good for you to have a good community and people get a lot of that. What were we talking about? Another episode we're going to do, but it's like one in four or five marriages starts in the office. There's a reason that these bonds are important, you spend a lot of time together.
It's such a good segue into our guest who hopefully is okay, and we will get to release next week due to a storm, but we're going to talk about this. We're literally going to talk about how important this is and how do you create these interactions and how do you create experiences that are intentional and interactions that are intentional in this cluster fuck that is the new normal with dispersed work.
[00:27:15] Tyson: Again, as much as we are totally aligned. I totally agree we need to be together and intentional. I just think that even if companies have that intent, I think that it will probably fall flat on its head. That's really difficult to do and it takes a lot of work and energy and companies don't even do the bare minimum oftentimes let alone that. That is going to be world-class. I wonder what happens again, in five years from now, it just ends up being exactly [laughs] how we were. [crosstalk]
[00:27:43] Alexa: Well, the dreamer in me is like we can fucking get people there and the cynic in me is like, everyone's just going to go back to being shitty.
[00:27:50] Tyson: That's the cynic in me too that I'm thinking, total side note cynic was the wordle a little while ago and I couldn't get it and it's funny I said to my mom [crosstalk]
[00:27:58] Alexa: Oh my God, you and Wordle. I don't think I know how to spell that, C-Y-N--
[00:28:05] Tyson: I-C-S. Anyways, I couldn't get it. My mom had gotten it and I kept saying, this word is not in my vocabulary. Whatever the answer to this wordle is, the word is not in my vocabulary and turns out the word was cynic. Let's try to be positive about these things.
[00:28:19] Alexa: That irony is very strong. Yes, the irony there is very strong.
[00:28:24] Alexa: Reminds me of one time I was playing the ski weekend with friends, I was playing the game where you put somebody's name on your forehead and you have to guess, you have to ask yes, no questions and it was Keanu Reeves. I was like, I've never seen this trilogy. I've never seen these movies. I don't know who this person is. For like two and a half hours I was like I cannot get this person. Then someone mentioned something about him having a dog in one of the movies that looks like my dog. I was like, "Oh, my God. It's Keanu Reeves. I laid down on the floor and was like, "I didn't--"
Because all the time people put names on those cards and I'm like, I don't know who that obscure fucking author is or random scientist. I'm not great at history. I don't know who that person was and this was fucking Keanu Reeves that stumped me.
[00:29:06] Tyson: I think I love Keanu Reeves. He takes the subway to work, he's a total normal ass guy. It's amazing.
[00:29:08] Alexa: Who doesn't? He's just been through a lot of fucking shit and he gets it. He's not worried about being like a pompous asshole. He's just like, "A lot of people I love have died. The world's not that serious. I paid millions of dollars. I'm just going to be a nice fucking human."
[00:29:23] Tyson: Yes.
[00:29:23] Alexa: Total non-sequitur, hang tight for next week. We have an awesome experience design guest coming, and let's hope that the rest of California does not have power outages, and we'll see you guys next week.
[00:29:34] Tyson: Awesome. See you.
[00:29:35] Alexa: This episode was executive produced by me, Alexa Baggio with audio production by Ellie Frigida of Fair Harmonies. Our intro music was also done by the wonderful Ellie Frigida of Fair Harmonies. You can find more information about us and future episodes at peopleproblemspod.com or follow us @peopleproblemspod on all things social. Thanks.
[00:29:52] [END OF AUDIO]