4 - Forgiveness Not Permission

Awww geez now... we're gonna rock the boat and spend some time in all the fun grey areas of HR with Dom 'The People Whisperer' Merritt - VP of People at Buildout - on this one. Cry in the office, but we're not your therapist. Coming in hot with our fourth episode of fun.

Release Date: July 6, 2021

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Warning, this podcast is about the realities of working in People Operations. This is not a stuck-up PC compliance-based or employment law podcast about stuffy outdated HR practices. Shit will get real here and we assume no responsibility.

[00:00:16] Tyson McKenzie: We had a strict no-alcohol policy and everybody was like, "Oh, don't drink HR is here." Meanwhile, I'm mid-crack of beer.

[00:00:24] Alexa Baggio: Why are we enabling you by being we'll make our HR the bad person in the room and we'll let them fire up for you and that's cheap bullshit.

[00:00:32] Tyson: The thoughts of being in a large room with other people just gives me so much anxiety. I have become a tougher man.

[00:00:38] Alexa: If they're that disengaged before, they're going to be that disengaged at the office just be sitting at their desk looking on Facebook. Now we're going to find ways to fuck off.

[00:00:45] Tyson: This is the People Problems podcast with Alexa Baggio and Tyson McKenzie.

[00:00:53] Alexa: How are we doing?

[00:00:54] Tyson: We're doing so good. I came prepared today with an intro that I need to share with you. Funny story, here I am just stealing the show right away.

[00:01:03] Alexa: I love it get in there.

[00:01:05] Tyson: Recently I posted on HR Shook something that really pissed me off. It was a question about if you're coming to me with a question about expenses like, "Thank you, next. Move along. I asked people, "Tell me--"

[00:01:16] Alexa: Did you post a Rebecca Black photo? I hope you did.

[00:01:19] Tyson: It's Ariana Grande.

[00:01:21] Alexa: Oh, whatever. Close enough they're both terrible.

[00:01:24] Tyson: The Friday girl anyways. I went, "What else is HR not?" and let me just read you some of the best responses. HR is not a therapist in charge of the coffee machine, a party planner, controller of the office temperature, a camp counselor, psychological support, a dishwasher, a toilet roll reloader, a travel booker, or a poster putter upper.

[00:01:52] Alexa: I love all of those things. I feel like we need t-shirts that say that. This is our new line of People Problems attire is all the HR is not.

[00:02:01] Tyson: All the things we're not. That's so funny.

[00:02:04] Alexa: That's so good. This is the best part of the HR show community is people are just so in line with this is so ridiculous. I love it. Any of those yours? Any ones you want to add?

[00:02:15] Tyson: My biggest one is don't ask me about your taxes because you'll get audited. Don't ask me about payroll because I don't know shit about payroll. I don't even know how myself gets paid and don't ask me about US benefits because that shit is just crazy. I know nothing about it.

[00:02:31] Alexa: The US we're not doing anybody any favors, we're in the benefit space. It's a fucking nightmare but that's a whole nother episode as other things are. I think it's hysterical. This is actually one of the things I think is frustrating about this industry. People don't understand this is, it's one of the reasons I think we got to kill the name HR. Is like everybody just loops all this shit together and it's like, "Oh, it must be the same team." Tyson's in HR. It's like what I used to tell my mom I worked in finance and I think she thought I was a fucking bank teller.

I was in investment banking, I worked at Merrill Lynch. I think she literally thought I was a bank teller. There's the same problem in HR is people think there's no nuance to the roles because no two teams are the same and every company does it differently. There are companies where the person who does payroll is also the person doing benefits and also the person "planning" the parties. That's probably not how it should be but unfortunately it's how it is.

[00:03:22] Tyson: The funniest thing is though is when I'm asked to come to a meeting and tell people what my job is, I'm like, "What the fuck is a HR business partner?"

[00:03:33] Alexa: What do you tell them?

[00:03:35] Tyson: I don't know.

[00:03:36] Alexa: Maybe you should just say all the things you're not, maybe that would be more helpful.

[00:03:39] Tyson: I'm like, "Look, I can't talk to you about payroll. I can't talk to you about expenses or taxes or your benefits but if you just want someone to chat with, hook me up, call me."

[00:03:51] Alexa: I'm here to help.

[00:03:52] Tyson: It's hard to explain. I don't have a good precise version.

[00:03:55] Alexa: Maybe we should do a whole section maybe on that.

[00:03:59] Tyson: What the hell is HR?

[00:04:01] Alexa: Especially an HR business partner. I love that you're coming in hot this week, Tyson I love it. I'm going to move us to Pops in the News, drum roll our first segment of the show.


This is one I'm going to try really hard not to put my bias in the description but the title is and this is the same once it's on one news channel it's everywhere. This got a ton of press in the last week. By the time this episode comes out maybe in the last couple weeks but dating app Bumble gives workers the week off to recover from burnout. This is one of those pieces that is like, "Oh, my God. Whitney Wolfe Herd whatever her name is, is like doing the most progressive thing in the world. We've had a challenging time during the pandemic. We're going to give everybody one full week of shutdown, no business whatsoever. "Hey, look at us." I'm going to stop there and get your thoughts on this before I further bias my overview of this article.

[00:05:14] Tyson: Obviously, they say right in the title that it's to recover from burnout but any time in my experience when a company is mandating time off like this, it's because shit has just gotten so bad. People haven't been able to take time off, or they're burning out, blah, blah, blah, whatever. From my experience, usually, when something like this happens, it means shit is probably really gone down there and people are dropping left, right and center and going on various [crosstalk]

[00:05:40] Alexa: Which leads me to another reason HR Shook meme which is, "Don't start creating culture committees." There's probably a lot of culture committees at Bumble right now, would be my guess but that makes me happy. That actually wasn't my original take on this. My first take on this because I'm such a cynic about everything that gets headlines in this space was, "First of all, this is just a huge PR play. This is purely a positive press move." That was my first response.

Then my second response was, "Why are your employees so burned out?" How did we get this bad that you need a week off? All the twist is, "This is the best thing ever. Look how progressive this is." Everybody's had this weird blur between office and hybrid work and remote work. People are like, "They don't know how to draw boundaries. We're going to be the good employer and we're going to draw the boundary for you and give everybody a week off." I call huge bullshit on this because the other thing that these articles never mentioned.

Why this stuff gets so jacked up and missed in the news is Bumble's stock price has plummeted since the pandemic started ending. I guess they have another app called Badoo or something.

[00:06:49] Tyson: These people are going back [crosstalk] on dates?

[00:06:50] Alexa: Yes. I think their other app is struggling to maintain itself, maybe as a social network. I don't want to butcher the facts of the business here because I'm certainly not an expert on Bumble Inc. I've never used a dating app in my life.

[00:07:05] Tyson: That's so retro of you.

[00:07:07] Alexa: I know, old school.

[00:07:08] Tyson: Do you meet people in person?

[00:07:09] Alexa: Five years ago, yes. [chuckles]. I'm so old school.

[00:07:15] Tyson: Look. I am married so-- [chuckles]

[00:07:15] Alexa: I used to tell people I met my boyfriend at a party and everyone would literally think that was code for Tinder and I was like, "No, no, no." Anyway, I swiped right on this bullshit, because I think this is just a PR play by Bumble.

[00:07:28] Tyson: It definitely could be. Just a quick shout-out here just for anyone who's working in the wellness space, taking a week off does not fix the root of the problem if people are that burned out. I tell this to people all the time for one-off situations, you need to take time off. Absolutely, you need to do it. Then when you come back to work, you need to set yourself up for success so that you don't end up burned out again. One week is not going to fix a company-wide burnout.

[00:07:53] Alexa: I also think it's funny because-- Look, I'm a big proponent of unlimited time off. I just believe you should hire adults you trust and so things like time off should not be this big a fucking headache. Look, that's easier said when you're a smaller company. I just listened to the Basecamp founder on Sam Harris and I was like, "Everything too synched makes a lot of sense," but it's also a 60-person company. The ramifications of the shit he did for a small fee, whatever.

I think, to your point, especially in the US, there's this idea of like, oh, well, unlimited PTO actually works against you because employees don't take it. Everybody's like, "What do we do? Employees aren't going to take the time." It's like, "Guys, this isn't rocket science. Just mandate a minimum." On Wall Street, they do this just to make sure you're not committing fraud. Just like, "Hey, if you can't step away from the desk for two weeks, odds are you're cooking the books over here." You have to [unintelligible 00:08:44] is you must take time off.

We have rules for every hour of your day, every minute that we have to pay you in every state for everything. We can't make a minimum time off requirement. This doesn't seem that hard, guys.

[00:08:59] Tyson: That is true, though, that the unlimited time off sometimes feels like a trick, and then people don't take it.

[00:09:03] Alexa: Oh, yes. For sure.

[00:09:03] Tyson: Then people end up-- I bet you Bumble has unlimited time off.

[00:09:08] Alexa: I'd be super curious.

[00:09:09] Tyson: We should look into that because a lot of people don't take that.

[00:09:13] Alexa: It gets bastardized all the time. People are like, "Oh, unlimited PTO just means I won't track it, and then you won't take it." It's like, "No, no, no." My team has unlimited PTO and I mandate it's a two-week minimum. We shut the office down for everybody for a week, every year no matter what. No PR campaign required. It's one of those things that just gets bastardized. I read this, and I went, "This smells like a PR campaign to me, and I think it is." What they don't talk about is why.

They just say, "Oh, to avoid burnout. We've had a tough year." I'm like, "You've had a tough year because you've been running your employees into the ground and your stock prices started plummeting." This is the best way to spin this and then make it look like you're a great employer when you're probably right, Tyson, place probably on fire. Speaking of fire, I'm super excited to introduce our guest today. He is a fire contributor to all things people ops. I'm very excited.

Our guest today is Dom Merritt. Nicknamed the people whisperer. Dom is the chief people officer at Buildout. Dom is a senior lecturer at Loyola University Chicago and an advisory board member of the People Ops Society. He's trying to disrupt HR one person at a time. God bless him and when he's not in the classroom teaching the next generation of people leaders, you can find him on his boat cruising Lake Michigan, one sippy cup of wine at a time. A man after my own heart, welcome to the show, Dom, how are you?

[00:10:30] Dom: I am well. How are you both?

[00:10:32] Alexa: Good. Sippy cups of wine is just like you're speaking my language.

[00:10:36] Dom: Absolutely. I wish I had one now.

[00:10:38] Alexa: [chuckles] You can go get one We'll wait. I told you we're going to have to like implement wine time on these. It is basically happy hour at the time we record this. What kind of boat do you have, Dom?

[00:10:49] Dom: The sailboat.

[00:10:51] Alexa: Nice. A sailor.

[00:10:52] Dom: Yes.

[00:10:53] Tyson: Okay, Dom.

[00:10:53] Alexa: What sailor are you?

[00:10:55] Tyson: Dom, I need to know who gave you the nickname the people whisperer and why?

[00:10:59] Dom: I gave it to myself actually.

[00:11:01] Alexa: Oh, self-proclaimed.

[00:11:03] Dom: [laughs]

[00:11:04] Alexa: Self-proclaimed. There's nothing I like more than a self-imposed nickname.

[00:11:07] Tyson: Tell us about the exact moment where you're like, Damn, I'm the people whisperer, a motherfucking people whisperer.

[00:11:13] Dom: I think it was like a couple of startups ago when I realized that all the things that HR is not I actually am. Even though I don't like that I am. I'm like, okay, I've got to have some super funny, witty way to describe myself other than just my typical boring title on LinkedIn and it's stuck. Now that's how people like, "Oh my gosh, tell me about this people whisperer," and I'm like, "Oh, okay, I will." [laughs]

[00:11:38] Alexa: What are all the things that you are that HR is not? I love this.

[00:11:43] Dom: I mean everything that Tyson just shared resonates.

[00:11:47] Alexa: Not the party planner. Not the tax guru.

[00:11:51] Dom: Well, my staff just told me this morning in staff meeting, "We should get a coach for your office. You can really become Zen in therapy." I'm like, "Absolutely not. I love you all but I'm not your therapist." Yes, that is--

[00:12:05] Alexa: That is actually I think one of the titles we considered for this show was "I'm not your therapist".

[00:12:12] Tyson: I'm not your therapist. I always say that, if you think you need to call HR, call your therapist first. If you still think you need to call HR, then you can give us a call.

[00:12:23] Alexa: It is the worse. Tell us, Dom, a little bit about how you got into this. Tell us a little bit about your journey and your story into People Ops.

[00:12:30] Dom: Yes. It was by mistake, I didn't have the traditional route of recruiting and then stumbled into this world of HR. I worked for a consulting firm and got really cocky because it was like a top consulting firm. Then when I got laid off in 2008, I needed a new job.

[00:12:47] Alexa: Rap here, rap here.

[00:12:50] Dom: [laughs] Then got a job at ADP, which like dinosaur of a company, great company for those ADP people who might be listening. Then that started it and then worked my way to the point of like, "Fuck Corporate America, I want nothing to do with you." Then moved over to the startup world and have been I've been in startup for about six years and haven't looked back.

[00:13:13] Tyson: What do you love about being people ops at startups?

[00:13:15] Alexa: Awesome.

[00:13:16] Dom: I think it's because I know the difference between right and wrong. I like to have fun in between and not everybody can do that. I think that's where you get to do the most exciting work and the most disruptive work is when you know how not to get sued. How not to get fined, and then you can just do everything else.

[00:13:35] Tyson: [crosstalk]

[00:13:35] Alexa: Ooh. Yes, I love this. What are some good examples of like things in the gray zone, Dom, that you've had a lot of success with and that you want to evangelize?

[00:13:45] Dom: Oh my gosh, I feel like--

[00:13:47] Alexa: You're just like, that whole framework probably makes a lot of people if they're what I call old guard listening to this, probably makes them very nervous. Like, "Oh, no, he's in the gray zone. Oh, no."

[00:13:57] Dom: Absolutely because I do not like SHRM.

[00:14:00] Alexa: Them and the compliance officer are shaking while they listen to this.

[00:14:04] Dom: Just like everything that SHRM teaching you, that's not the real world. That's not how that works. I could terminate this person in five ways and still not get sued for wrongful termination. If I get creative and think about the ways in which we could package this and spin this and document this. Do all those things that SHRM will tell you, "No, you have to fall by the book." I think like one of the big things that I disrupted is and I think I'm certainly not the only one who has this story. Performance management, fucking hate it's the worst thing ever.

I think somebody got a hold to Jack Welch's concept of performance management and then didn't realize that several years later, GE abandoned that. Then Netflix got a hold of it. Then they've since moved on from it, but for whatever reason, we still think that like, "Oh, you can do all these like interesting, weird things and performance management." It's like no, the biggest thing is just to give people feedback. Tell people how they're doing. You don't have to like tie all these arbitrary. This distribution curve and that distribution curve to have a cadence of feedback.

[00:15:07] Alexa: Oh, man. I feel like the Korn Ferry people are like, "Who is this guy? How do we put a laser through his window?" [laughs]

[00:15:15] Tyson: What was the performance management that was abolished by Netflix and GE? What was the process for people that don't know?

[00:15:21] Dom: They were trying to disrupt or separate pay for performance. In a perfect world--

[00:15:26] Alexa: You get your review and your raise at the same time.

[00:15:29] Dom: Yes. At the end of the day, that's not how the real world works. People want to know, "I busted my ass. I did all this work, now where's my money for it?" I think that's a really difficult thing to do. I've not really adopted that anyway, but it's just more of, "You do a good job, here's money. You don't do a good job. Okay. We'll have a conversation later." Totally not super disruptive, but it's just like, I think it's honest and real.

[00:15:54] Alexa: No, it's honest. It's real. The reality is if we're not paying you for your performance, what the fuck are we paying you for? If they're not linked, then what are we doing here? The whole reason you work here is I give you dollars and you give me your time. That's literally the arrangement.

[00:16:12] Tyson: The simplicity is so good to that too because when you try to split the two, even though companies are like, "Oh yes, we pay for performance," but then they do exactly what you just said. They try to split the two and there's no connection at all. It's so hard to explain to people either, "Yes, you're getting an increase," or, "No, you're not," and the why behind that. Just saying do a good job. You will get paid. I love the simplicity to that. It just makes sense for people to understand.

[00:16:36] Alexa: This is clearly-- Again, the cynic in me is there's some management consultant that came in and was like, "You'll have to pay people less if you separate these conversations, because then you can say good things and stroke their ego, but not have to cough up the dollars." I call bullshit on that. It's my only job on this.

[00:16:57] Dom: It's like you make this seven-point rating scale just so that you can push people further down and not give them more money. Then no one really knows I'm a four.

[00:17:05] Alexa: Yes. It's totally subjective.

[00:17:07] Dom: What does that mean?

[00:17:09] Tyson: With managers that all interpret it differently and apply it differently across the organization as well.

[00:17:14] Dom: Then start to learn how to gain the system to get their employees what they want.

[00:17:18] Tyson: That's our job though. I do that all the time in HR. I gain the system to try to get my employees what they should deserve.

[00:17:27] Alexa: The simplicity is very very much the prime driver here and why it's just an awesome way to look at things, Dom. I always find that you have such nuggets of wisdom like this. It also makes me think a little bit about this concept of just incentives in general. That's what performance management is. You're aligning incentives, you're driving behaviors because of incentives. We've just over-academically exercised all of these things. There's only so many things that motivate a person like taking care of their family, dollars, pride, ego.

There's only like a half dozen, maybe a dozen things if you were to write it out that define human nature. Why we are continuing to try to rewrite those as if they're not still the same 10 things they were. Yes, technology has changed societal pressures and norms change, but the reality is humans are still driven by largely the same things, right?

[00:18:21] Dom: Yes. It's like tapping into that and stop trying to paint this broad stroke across your organization. My CEO and I were talking about how can we disrupt benefits next year? Part of that is like, okay, "We've got our statutory benefits that we have to make available to you. We have to provide medical, all that stuff." It's everything else what's important to you. Here's a bucket of money. You pick what you want to spend your dollars on. If you spent it on a Netflix subscription and then you realize you didn't contribute enough to your 401k, that's on you, not me.

[00:18:55] Alexa: Maybe here's a few things we care about as an employer, but yes, exactly.

[00:19:01] Dom: It's how do you really get to what's most important for people and give it to them. I think we've just gotten so conditioned to this is the way-- Again, it's that black and white. This is the way it's always been. This is how benefits is, this is how HR is. It's like, no, there's this whole realm of that every human being if you are inquisitive has thought, "I wonder if we could do this thing." That's the gray. We can do it. Then if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. If it does, now you've got something to build upon.

That's why I love being in the startup spaces, because we get to build on and play on those things. Again, knowing I know how not to get us sued. Mr. Manager, or Ms. Manager you don't know those things. That's what I'm here to make sure that in our fun creativeness, you're not getting us sued.

[00:19:51] Alexa: My question, Dom would be because one of the things I always joke about is HR comes from the realm of 30 years ago, you just bought healthcare and made sure the company didn't get sued. The not getting sued thing is almost always construed as like, "Well, HR's not on my team. I think that's also not true. I think that's just true in bad companies, right? Where the people team hasn't been set up to succeed and represent the team. My question for you would be why do you think that so many people view this as so black and white?

[00:20:17] Dom: That's a good question. I think it's a societal construct or a corporate societal construct. That we've just been taught that there is this way to do it and there is that way to do it and you don't question. That's the story of how I've left corporate because like I questioned something. I literally wanted to make one change that took me like six minutes to execute on it but took six months to get approval. 20 people, the 20th person out of spite was being an asshole. I was just like, I can't deal with this, but that's just how people are taught.

It has to be a certain way because, well, our company's 100 years old. That's how we've always done it but clearly, that's not working. All the surveys we do, the people are saying it. People have unionized because of it. Let's fix something let's ask the tough question. That's what I enjoy doing. It's asking that tough question. Then actually doing something about it and not paying like $200,000 to bring in a consultant to tell me something I already knew.

[00:21:16] Alexa: Oh man, the number of HR consultants, we literally could do a solo episode just ranting about how an industry's broken when there's this money fucking consultants involved.

[00:21:26] Dom: God bless them. They're great. They do great things.

[00:21:28] Alexa: Some of them are great.

[00:21:29] Dom: They do great things, but if I hire you to be a consultant, tell me something I don't know. For example, I will admit that I am not an expert in the DEI space, nor do I want to be one. That's why someone, that's why there are talented gifted leaders who can come into an organization and even help me challenge my own bias. Right?So that we could move our organization forward but don't tell me how to write a handbook. I've written probably more than you have in your whole career.

[00:21:58] Tyson: They don't know the company, right? I think it's so important for people and people ops to know the heart and soul and blood of a company. That is our job is to know it inside-out from the top to the bottom. Consultants come in and they take a cookie-cutter approach that they probably just ship to 17 million different companies and get paid a crap ton of money for. It's probably not achieving the purpose or whatever you were trying to strive for. That bureaucracy with approvals is such a sore spot I think for a lot of people who work in people operations.

Is like getting approvals-- You mentioned, costs $200,000 to bring a consultant. It'd probably cost the company $200,000 for you to get all those approvals and the time that it cost is-- [laughs]

[00:22:36] Alexa: Yes, literally. Just to add pure meeting hours, it's probably worth more than that.

[00:22:42] Dom: The number of reviewals and approval e-mails that had to be sent.

[00:22:46] Alexa: It also like you made a sort of secondhand comment there, Dom that I want to double click on. Which is like the idea of like handbooks, you've just done this so many times. You're like, "I can write a handbook with my eyes closed," but at the same time, I'm like, why is a guy that has got so much experience and so much forward-thinking, spending his time, writing handbooks? Doctors always say, "Oh, I want to practice at the top of my license." Right, which means, "I just want to do the good, cool surgeries that are gonna get me credit. I want to do the research that nobody's doing."

Will get a PA, a bunch of nurses, aestheticians, and all these other people to do the 17 parts of the surgery I don't want to fucking do because it's grunt work. We don't have a version of that in this industry, which is like, let's take the gangsters, like Dom and Tyson. Let's give them an army of people to just make them thought leaders. I feel like that's one of the things that when people say SHRM, I start cringing because that's where ideas and fun go to die. Innovation fun goes to die at SHRM, but also it's just not reading--

[00:23:45] Tyson: It's the same encounter of HRPA.

[00:23:47] Alexa: It's not reading-

[00:23:48] Tyson: [crosstalk] HR folks.

[00:23:49] Alexa: Yes. HRPA, HRPA just sounds dirty.

[00:23:53] Tyson: They're sending me a mail now because I stopped paying them. I'm actually getting letters like snail mail and I just remove the letters from the end of my [crosstalk].

[00:24:05] Alexa: That's not very ego-friendly HRPA. Anyway.

[00:24:09] Dom: You said why am I spending time writing a handbook? I feel like that's the gray where I'll get a handbook from legal. I'm like, "That's not what's going to get published." I know, okay, certain things, like we can have fun was like, "Okay, our lawyers are making us tell you this," and actually like writing that [crosstalk]

[00:24:28] Alexa: Literally say that.

[00:24:28] Dom: We actually do that in our offer letters. We have all the stuff and say, "We break this exciting news to give you some words from our lawyers." Right?

[00:24:37] Tyson: [chuckles] That's awesome.

[00:24:39]Dom: That's to the point--

[00:24:42] Alexa: In plain English. Right.

[00:24:41] Dom: Right. That's to the point that you made about having the heart of the company. Being able to understand how to speak to the company and speak like the company in a way that people can connect to. I have fun rewriting the handbook and taking all this legal and putting it into words that they'll actually remember. Not like this here, for now, henceforth and because of, and all that other bullshit that I don't even know what it means.

[00:25:06] Alexa: Every time I get a legal document, I literally just pick up the phone and call my lawyer and go, "Can you explain this to me in plain English?" Which makes me think dumb. It's so funny, you just gave me this visual, which I'm going to butcher because I'm not the world's most articulate human. If old school HR is people thinking, "Oh, I'm a human," and I talk to HR and what I get back is legalese and all this bullshit and compliance and blah, blah, blah. Real people ops and the new version of this is people like you guys who are basically you're translating into human.

You're saying like, "Here's the things that business and the company has to do. Let me translate that to people that have to do it. Right, which is like the complete opposite tide shift from the current guard of thinking.

[00:25:49] Dom: Okay. I'm okay getting in trouble too.

[00:25:52] Alexa: I can't imagine you're getting in trouble, Dom.

[00:25:54] Dom: Oh yes. I have to ask for forgiveness a lot.

[00:25:57] Tyson: I think it sets us up for success if the employees understand all that shit. What happens when they don't understand is a few months later something comes up or they get fired and they're like, "Hey, you can't do this."All of a sudden we're like, "Oh yes, but Section 5.6 it's right here. Hence, therefore, because of whatever--"

[00:26:17] Dom: Then they'll tell you,-

[00:26:18] Alexa: Here aforementioned.

[00:26:19] Dom: "Oh, I didn't read the handbook," because it's too fucking long.

[00:26:24] Tyson: I didn't read the handbook either.

[00:26:26] Alexa: There is one and therefore the company is scott-free assuming it says the things that's supposed to say. It's ass-backwards.

[00:26:34] Tyson: I want to know though, so someone asked me recently to talk about world-class HR, or what that looks like. I was like, hmm, that's a good question. You talked about disrupting benefits and stuff. Dom, as a visionary in this space, what is something that's world-class?

[00:26:54] Alexa: Where's the whisperer?

[00:26:55] Tyson: World-class directly from the people whisperer?

[00:26:58] Alexa: The whisperer.

[00:26:59] Dom: That's a great question, and it's not anything that I would say is super profound, but I think sometimes in HR we say that we're people-oriented and people first, but we're really not. We're company first because at the end of the day we represent the company. I think our best-in-class HR team or HR leader is one who understands how to walk that thin line and do what's going to be best for both. Sometimes that means telling the company, "This is fucked up and you need to go a different direction." Or telling the employee, "No, it's just not going to work out."

Right, so being able to balance those two and create an experience. One of my favorite speakers her name's Brené Brown. She's great. I was watching her on a flight back from Hong Kong one time and forgot I was on a plane because I was yessing the entire time. Anyway, she says this idea of to be clear is to be kind. I think the kindest thing that you can do as an HR leader is to just treat people like people. At a company that shall remain nameless, I had to tell the finance team point-blank on a call. I'm like, "Look, listen, these are human beings. You're looking at them as numbers on a spreadsheet, like that's bullshit."

Right? Treat them like humans and then you will get then what you want out of them. People just want to be treated like a human. I think it's like finding that bit, that thin line. I think you actually see it over the evolution of an HR practitioner's career when they first start out, the company is terrible. That's the man. Then, "We have to advocate for our employees. Employee first." Then you get more senior in your career and you start thinking, "These fucking employees, I can't stand them."


Then you start making decisions that are counter that you don't work in their favor, but a good HR leader is able to straddle that line. It's a very thin [crosstalk]

[00:28:53] Alexa: Yes, you're like a litigator almost.

[00:28:54] Dom: Exactly

[00:28:56] Alexa: It's like, "I'm between these needs and these needs. Let's find common ground."

[00:28:59] Dom: Right, but it's being able to challenge both. I think that not many people have the confidence to do that. I think that that's something that's lacking in HR people ops today, is just people having the confidence to say and to do the thing that they actually feel in their heart are the right things to do. Just say it. You might get in trouble. That's okay but if you're doing your job and you're doing it well-- I've had times where I've done things and I'm like, "Yes, so I just made that call and I'm going to do it."

They're like, all right. Probably not the way I would've done it, but we're getting what we need to get.

[00:29:31] Tyson: You're better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

[00:29:33] Alexa: That's one of my all-time favorite phrases is ask for forgiveness, not permission. I wish more people in this industry thought like that. My question for you, Dom is, how do we give them more confidence? How do we create more confidence in this industry?

[00:29:46] Dom: Yes, I think it's tough because for me I think I just did it. I was just like, I could get fired for this.

[00:29:57] Alexa: Just roll the dice. That's your advice? Just take a gamble.

[00:30:00] Dom: I tell other people all the time I'm not your typical HR guy. I am the one who probably might get called into HR.

[00:30:06] Alexa: You're the whisperer.

[00:30:08] Tyson: No but I would say, Dom, that's why you can get away with this asking for forgiveness versus permission. I have only had success in speaking straight to the business and being like, "Look, this HR thing is stupid and this is how we're going to get around it together." Having that credibility, the relationship, and the trust. Sometimes you have to work with your business client and almost work around the system or tread on that thin line. Or just this is how we just don't get sued. Building up that trust and credibility with your business partners is essential.

That's why you can get away with that is that relationship.

[00:30:44] Dom: It's getting to know the business just as well as the CFO, the CEO does. Once you truly understand the business then you can start to layer in those people elements. Then you can actually say, "Hey, we are probably not going to be able to do that with the people that we have today." Or, "Hey, if you want to do this, here's what's going to happen," and explain. You start to develop that credibility because now you're speaking their language because you're understanding how this ties into an OKR or how this people element might support a revenue goal or something that might exist.

I think that if more people ops and HR people seek to understand the business, then I think that's how you can begin to be seen as credible. Then you'll start getting trusted when you start to make these wild crazy idea or suggestions. They're like, "Okay, let us know what you need from us to try it." It's like I have no idea if this is going to work but I'm willing to try it. That's something that I think a lot of people it's the agency that people wish they had but I think the cultures of companies don't allow for that.

You just got to make a call at a certain point in your career like am I going to stick in this or am I not? I chose not to stick in it. I'm glad that I made that call. It was scary but it's been the best thing for my career because now I have fun doing what I do aside from when I'm in adult daycare is what I to call [crosstalk].

[00:32:11] Alexa: [laughs] Well I think it's definitely frowned upon to snap while you're recording a podcast but I want to just applaud everything you just said, Dom. I think Tyson and I have talked about this before one of the big missing links for how we propel this whole industry forward is this concept of business skills and business knowledge. There's a few variations of people that come to the industry. There's people who just been in it for 30 or 40 years and they're just entrenched. It's just they're order takers and paper pushers and a form of administrator.

To no fault of their own they're probably very good at it. It's very complicated at large organizations but it's a fundamentally different role than what is being asked of the culture of work now. Then there's people who are just like the I always equate them to those that can't do teach. The people who just fall into HR because they're like, "Well, I didn't know what else to do," and so they wind up in some version of this that's maybe they're in comp and payroll. They're certainly not everybody. There are great people in those professions too but there are those people that--

[00:33:11] Tyson: A quick caveat, I think everybody just fell into HR. Not dismissing those people because not many people I know actually chose HR and we did fall here.

[00:33:21] Alexa: No. I'm saying there's people that fell in for the wrong reasons. Then the piece I haven't gotten to yet is the people that fell into this because they were like, "I've been doing something else before this. What I understand is people and what I'm starting to understand is the business." Or, "What I really understand is the business and what I'm starting to understand is the people." That seems to be the nexus that comes together for people that are truly drawn to these newer versions of this role.

They're calling themselves people ops not because they think it's a flashier title than HR, because they fundamentally understand the difference. Exactly like you said, Dom, they can walk the line or what we usually talk about here on People Problems as the bridge between the business and the humans. That's hard to do. I just think you can take all the compliance seminars and watch as many SHRM panels as you want. It is not going to teach you the fundamental mechanics of how a business works.

If you can't put that together, you're not going to be able to help lead a team that drives towards goals. You're just not going to be able to get there.

[00:34:19] Tyson: Need to speak that language. You said oftentimes we tell finance teams you need to be able to translate the finance into a story that people can understand so that we understand the numbers below. It's the same thing with people operations. We need to be able to translate the people stuff in a way that the finance people understand and that accept. Then they're like, "Oh, yes I get it. I get why this is important." Being that translator.

[00:34:43] Dom: That's just how this industry has been constructed since it was personnel.

[00:34:49] Alexa: Another considered podcast name. Another one we considered personnel.

[00:34:54] Dom: If you've got to be in an organization and you have to-- Not just the organization. You've got to be someone who's willing to just ask the question. I think that we don't have the agency and I was there early in my career where I didn't have the agency like I thought it, but I dare not say that. You just have to get to that point and at the end of the day be true to yourself. Establish that credibility so that you can make your way into the room where it happens. Then once you're in the room where it happens, then you can actually start to affect the change that you want to see in your organization.

It takes building that credibility.

[00:35:34] Tyson: How do people build credibility? I just want to zone in here because I get a lot of people asking how do I make it in HR? This is a big one.

[00:35:42] Dom: I think the biggest thing is even with just outside of the business world, do what you say you're going to do. Just be authentic, be honest. I think when you're given a situation in terms of let's say, for example, we're trying to reimagine our bonus program. Think about the pros, the cons. Don't just bring it from like, "This is going to help the employees. This is going to do that." What's the impact on the business by asking for an additional $100,000. What's going to happen on that front? How is that going to impact the P&L?

Coming with the pros and cons. I think coming with I think an informed opinion that's not just based out of something that you feel in your heart or something like that, which is great. I think based on the data-- Basically what I'm saying is shift it from being anecdotal. Start to make decisions and recommendations that are data-driven. Then that's how you can create that credibility. As soon as you start to show your financing, your CEO, whomever, you've got data to back up this ask of 100,000 extra dollars, that's how you have that credibility.

You're thought out. It's not just you on a whim. Even though the work that we do generally is not on a whim, but we have to show that we're not just anecdotally driven that we are data-driven. I think that's the shift that a lot of people ops professionals, the direction they have to be willing to go in because that's the only way you'll be able to affect change in your company.

[00:37:16] Alexa: Yes. I love that.

[00:37:17] Tyson: I would also say just very quickly people shouldn't be afraid to pull on Alexa and call bullshit.

[00:37:22] Alexa: It's my only job on this podcast.

[00:37:24] Tyson: That's how you can build credibility as well.

[00:37:26] Alexa: Resident bullshit caller.

[00:37:29] Dom: I'm not a yes person. I certainly got into shouting matches with my CEO and after the call, I'm like, "Fuck, I'm going to lose my job," but it's because we can call bullshit. I've actually said to them, "Dude, that is total and you know it." If you can say it and then have something to back it up with, not just the bullshit like, "Oh, I don't know why I just called you out on that," but like, "Here's why," that's how you get to build that trust, and that's how you get to build that credibility.

[00:37:57] Alexa: Yes. Contextualizing your arguments. Dom, I couldn't agree more with everything you're saying. The one thing I see people struggling with when I hear them talking in this industry and asking questions is, "Let's think about what the fuck we're solving for here first." Decisions don't get made in a vacuum. It's sometimes not about $100,000 or not $100,000. $100,000 might be nothing to the company. It's like, what are we solving for here? Are we solving for a retention issue? Are we solving for a growth issue?

Are we solving for a legal liability cover? What the fuck are we solving for here? I feel like so often if I don't have the answer, then I can't have any contribution to an answer. It's like, no, if you're coming to this with an understanding of the situation in the business, data like you're saying to back up and support the argument and a few different arguments based on the outcome we're going for. How can you not be a valued contributor to that conversation?

[00:38:53] Tyson: The options are key. I love that.

[00:38:55] Alexa: Exactly. You can't make decisions in a vacuum.

[00:38:57] Dom: That's what the leaders are looking for is what they want someone to do that and in the absence of that, they're just going to go like, "We're just going to do this thing anyway." Then the HR person is pissed off and it's like you missed an opportunity because they were actually wanting you to do that. Then what ends up happening is then they end up hiring over you because they want that.

[00:39:19] Alexa: You have to bring viewpoints to the table that they go, "Oh, that's a good fucking point. We got to keep him or her or them at the table. Shit. We wouldn't miss that without them. They brought the credit to back it up." I love that. I got to ask for the sake of time, Dom, you are also a teacher in this space. I'm sure that it does not probably come to anyone who's this far into this podcast, listening to you talk that you are not only the whisperer, you are also a professor of these things.

I'm very curious what you like teaching, what your favorite things are to teach in this space, and what drew you to teaching.

[00:39:53] Dom: Yes, for sure. I had this weird thing when I was growing up that I just wanted to be the president of a college.

[00:39:58] Alexa: So specific.

[00:40:00] Dom: So specific and I even took being the dean as a plan B and for whatever reason, that stuck with me. From a little kid, I just wanted to be the president of a college. Then when I got to grad school, I was okay I'm almost here. TLDR, I talked to my mentor, who is the dean in the department of the school that I teach in. She was like, "Here are all the things you need to do," and I'm like, "Okay, great. She took me out to Starbucks one day and she's like, "If I gave you a classroom tomorrow, what would you do?"

I'm like, "Oh, I would do this, that." She's, "All right. I'll see you in the fall." I was like, "Oh my gosh I'm so grateful." That was seven years ago so cool. What I do is teach management. My students aren't HR practitioners. I teach my students how to understand and work with people like us. Right? When you get called when HR is telling you, "Hey manager, do these things," you think is bullshit. Here's why we're asking you to do that. Here's why we're drilling into you how important documentation is and what happens when we don't have it.

Then how pissed off we get when we have to clean up your bullshit. Right? I try to frame it through that lens. I've had several students tell me, "Oh my gosh, you made me like HR again."

[00:41:14] Tyson: I feel you've cracked the code, have an HR person teach management. I feel like you've cracked the code.

[00:41:22] Alexa: It feels a weird wormhole or something.

[00:41:26] Dom: Yes, it is because people are just taught we're the no patrol. Right? If you actually [crosstalk] get to talk to us and engage us and loop us in buff. Let me decide if this is an HR issue or not. If you don't involve me in it, and then you involve me after the fact. Then I find out you've known this thing was going on for six months and you didn't say anything. It's what I tell my employees when management training, it's you might be held responsible.

[00:41:59] Tyson: If they had have included you earlier, you could have helped them with being above the line. That suing line, let's say for example, and helped them get to the same outcome just in a way that was within whatever the unwritten boundaries or the suing laws or whatever that is [laughs]

[00:42:15] Dom: That's the whisperer effect because I can be in the background guiding you in terms of how you talk to that employee or deal with that situation and no one else knows that I'm involved, but I'm helping you and I'm helping the company.

[00:42:28] Tyson: Oh, I love that. That's the HR puppeteer, right? No one knows, but we're really just the puppeteers of the company.

[00:42:34] Alexa: That's when it's working well, but if you're just the fun police and the firing squad, then this doesn't usually work. Dom, I love this any words of wisdom or things that you've been successful in recently that you think others could learn from. Something that you've done really well recently, that you want to share with the larger group?

[00:42:58] Dom: My third week with the company, I transitioned everyone home. [laughs]

[00:43:03] Tyson: How'd that go?

[00:43:05] Dom: Maybe question everything every day.

[00:43:08] Tyson: How are you feeling now a year later?

[00:43:10] Dom: The year is still out on that one. I love what I do. I love the people I get to work with. I'm not just paid to say that, but I think this past year really made us all question ourselves. It felt like we were starting over from scratch because no one had ever done what we had to deal with. Everyone looked at HR of like, "Hey HR, figure it out." Okay. I think something that I learned is that it's okay not to have all the answers and there were many times throughout this year. Now as we're starting to return to whatever normal means now, I still don't have answers.

It's just admitting the power of vulnerability, right? Admitting that you don't have it all figured out. I think I have these ideas there's a story. I want to tell myself about it, but we're going to figure it out together. I think just knowing that it's okay to be human. It's something I was telling an employee this week. Oftentimes where we have to be superhuman, especially as I think women in business, as people of color in business you can't really be vulnerable because then that there is a sign of weakness.

I tell people I don't know what's going on outside of these four walls of my office. When you walk in here, never apologize to me for being human. Never apologize for crying. Never apologize for being the thing that is authentically you. I think that that's something that can translate to people in this space is be authentically you, be human. Know that we are fallible. We're going to make mistakes. If you can work with your businesses to create that safe space where it's okay to learn, and it's okay to make mistakes.

Then you've got the freedom to do all the things that you're like, "Gosh, if I had my own company I would try it that way, or I would do it this way." That's the gray space is that you know what not to do now, just go and do all those things. Hell, if you can't do it at this company, package it up and take it to another company. Don't get sued, but--

[00:45:14] Alexa: [laughs] See under the carrier of this episode is also don't get sued.

[00:45:17] Tyson: Don't get sued. I love what you said about HR also being human. I think that it's this weird thing that happens when you work in people operations is that you have to be perfect all the time. You can't express any emotion or opinion. I'm here representing the company. I can't get drunk at the Christmas party, all these things. You just have to be superhuman because you have managers that vent to you, you have employees that vent to you, but who does HR go to, really? Don't tell me you're HR for HR, because nobody talks to them.

No offense. God loved all of you, but you just don't. It's like--

[00:45:55] Alexa: You come to the People Problems Podcast, Tyson, and you air your shit.


[00:46:00] Tyson: Exactly, but it is important.

[00:46:02] Dom: Really witty people on social media and Instagram, they are like yes, it sucks.

[00:46:08] Tyson: I get a few people that reach out and give me some good venting situations. Sometimes the comments blow up and people just go crazy. It is important all you people operations people are also people. It's a lot of people.

[00:46:22] Alexa: Yes, and I actually think it's really the opportunity for the future of this industry is like the more that we can do what Dom is talking about. Which is set this up as, I'm the human that's in charge of talking to the people here and talking to the business. When you come to me, I am still going to be a human about that. I bring my own biases and fallibilities to this situation. At least you will understand the context that I am dealing with. That will make it easier for me to deal with you. You can come to my office.

If you are upset about something, cry it out. Just don't treat me like your therapist because that's a bridge too far. You have to walk that line, but you will get so much more out of people by saying, this is a safe space where you can let your guard down a little bit. It actually helps me and my job effectively turn around and indicate what is actually happening here. If you're guarded with HR and you're again, not the extreme of you're abusing their privileges and treating them like a therapist's office

If you're not coming to them because you fear they're going to fire you or be in charge of giving you fired or all these myths about HR. You're actually keeping the HR team from being able to help you and the people team from being able to turn around and be like, "Hey CEO, I've got six people crying in my office about this shit it's time to fix it. We got a real red flag here. Some people walked in, they look tense." [laughs] I'm like--

[00:47:52] Tyson: No, but let's just be clear. We joked earlier on about, hey, HR is not your therapist or whatever. Let's just be clear about this, because now we're saying yes, come and cry in my office. I think going to--

[00:48:02] Alexa: When it's appropriate, all things in context.

[00:48:03] Tyson: No, if you're going to HR, people operations to express frustration about something that's going on in your job. Something that accompany a process that's not setting you up for success. Those types of things, I think are really important to share with the HR person. Going in and talking about all your dirty laundry about all the stuff that's going on in your life and everything-

[00:48:25] Alexa: Just to be clear, [crosstalk] I think you should only be in HR's office at all when your manager is not an option. Really, in theory, all of these things are first stop is your manager. If you're upset about something manager's-

[00:48:40] Dom: Yes, that's the first question to ask.

[00:48:41] Alexa: -first line of defense.

[00:48:42] Tyson: You talk to your lead.

[00:48:43] Dom: It's like, "Have you talked to your manager about it?" They're like, "No." "Well go talk to your manager first and then you can come back and talk to me."

[00:48:48] Alexa: Which is again you would think that-- I assume that's just first obvious first line of defense. I'm going to talk to the person who is in charge of me about the issue that I'm having. It's so weird that that line of connection seems to have gotten convoluted. Look, there are people who have bad managers, that's another thing we could have called this podcast, shitty managers. It's a huge issue in this industry is just bad managers. HR gets stuck with a bunch of shit.

If you cannot go to your manager or that is not a safe place, or the issue is with the manager, that's when pulling HR in or people ops aside and saying, "I need to be real about something for a minute," can actually be a really powerful interaction for everybody involved.

[00:49:27] Tyson: Right. The reason we say, we're not therapists is the same reason I say I'm not an accountant and you don't want my help with your taxes. I can't help you. There are people that are trained to do this and I will refer you to the employee assistance program, but it's still--

[00:49:40] Alexa: I can't play the coach of the situation. I can QB the situation for you.

[00:49:44] Tyson: Or I can help you like, even on the employee side of things, what is that line? What is that gray zone? How can I coach you into having a better conversation, and rebuilding trust with your lead? Those are types of conversations absolutely. If you don't know what the fuck is the process to get promoted because most people don't. Let's talk about it. What's confusing to you? What can I clarify? That type of thing because that's a frustration point as well? Things like that definitely I think it makes a lot of sense.

[00:50:07] Alexa: Yes. Well, speaking of frustration points, sad but we are running out of time here, folks. I'm going to bring us to our last section of this podcast. Time flies when you're having fun talking to the professor whisperer over here. It's time for people problems.

[00:50:19] Tyson: The people whisperer.

[00:50:22] Dom: The people puppet.

[00:50:24] Alexa: The people puppet, the puppeteer.

[00:50:26] Tyson: New name.

[00:50:26] Alexa: Time for people problem.


This is section four, we just advice people-based questions, topics that get sent in. This one is actually submitted by myself, I jumped the line, I win. This is just a problem or question that the world wants your answer on. This is actually something I've gone through quite a bit recently. The question is how much time or energy should be put into a candidate e-mail that you are not moving forward with? How do you make it truly valuable for both parties? In this instance, "I'm not going to move forward with your candidacy, I'm not going to hire you."

Also, I need to let you know that in a way that is not just vague and unhelpful, and a total fucking waste of your time. How do you guys think about striking the right balance in terms of articulating the non-positive parts of hiring?

[00:51:19] Tyson: At what point is this? Is this after applying, or is this after maybe you've had an interview with them?

[00:51:24] Alexa: No, I would say this is if you've just applied, it's like, "No, sorry," but if we've had a conversation, and you've been part of a process of some sort. We've genuinely considered you for the role is I think the context here. I struggle with this. I struggle with I need to release you. I don't want to keep you waiting for an answer you're not going to want or not going to get. At the same time, I don't want to spend a ton of time articulating why or trying to sugarcoat why if that's not actually helpful to the candidate.

[00:51:57] Dom: I've got two thoughts. One, in my role is typically the hiring manager that made the decision and so I get them to write out why this person is not the right fit or for the role. Then I think the simplest way to look at it is think about if you were in that person's shoes, and then got that note. What would you want to be told? I think that's the golden rule that I think sometimes gets blurred in the space even. As people leaders is that we forget that there's a human on the other side of that e-mail, and that human could very well be us.

[00:52:28] Alexa: My boyfriend does this trick all the time and sometimes it sucks because he's right but he's always like, let's reverse the roles here. Let's assume this friend of ours was the person in this situation. It is actually a fascinating exercise, because you're like, oh, shit, if that person came to me with this instead of you, I'd feel very differently about how I handle this.

[00:52:46] Dom: I think that's the candidate experience that you want. That you want that person that even if this wasn't the right time, or the right role, that they still think highly of you and want to come back.

[00:52:58] Alexa: If that's how I feel. That's what I tried to do. I'm like, I think there's like four things I want to know, I'd like want to know, why wasn't I fit? Was it the role or the experience? What could I do better if I'm still considering this role. Is this like a not now, or is this a never. I think those are the only things that are helpful when you're getting to know but what do you guys think?

[00:53:17] Tyson: I would just say, like you said, make sure-- this is obvious, but tell them as soon as you do know because that person is probably sitting there waiting and waiting for the call. I've been that person waiting for a call from a recruiter and it's killing me.

[00:53:30] Alexa: The worst is when they just never follow up.

[00:53:32] Tyson: They never follow up.

[00:53:33] Alexa: They just never e-mail you. I'm militant about it because I need to let you know as soon as I know because I want to be mindful of your time but even easier at a smaller company.

[00:53:43] Tyson: Giving them that feedback like you said, like, this is the why behind the decision, blah, blah, blah. Then the feedback this is similar to my advice when people ask me how you should fire someone. Do it as if you're going to bump into that person again or if you're going to work with that person again. You always want to leave the person on a good note, whether they've quit, whether you're firing them. Whether you're telling them no. You never know when your paths are going to cross again.

You never know if that person just happens to know someone that might come back into your life somehow. Or what they're going to start saying about you. You never ever, ever want to burn a bridge, regardless of how the relationship is ending. Whether it's in the candidate like this example or if it's just an employment relationship.

[00:54:23] Alexa: Dom, anything to add?

[00:54:24] Dom: Just to treat the person like they're human. Just remember there's a human on the other side of that e-mail.

[00:54:28] Alexa: I actually go the opposite which is I probably don't need to read a two-page e-mail right now but I'm trying to overengineer.

[00:54:35] Tyson: It should be a two-minute phone call.

[00:54:37] Alexa: Yes, people don't pick up their phones like they used to, but--

[00:54:41] Tyson: From someone calling a better job.

[00:54:44] Alexa: Well, yes, but I'm like at some random Pennsylvania area code and


[00:54:48] Dom: I know the recruiter's phone numbers when I'm looking for jobs.

[00:54:52] Tyson: You answer your phone. I answer, I see like a 1800 number and I'm like, I'm going to answer it just in case.

[00:54:57] Alexa: Oh my god, how many Chinese cruises do you get offered? How many of those have you won?

[00:55:04] Tyson: No. Now it's like you know--

[00:55:05] Alexa: How many small business loans?

[00:55:07] Tyson: It's like the people telling me it's like the CRA that's like the tax people in Canada. That the police are coming and I didn't pay my taxes. Also why you don't want to ask me about your taxes?

[00:55:19] Alexa: Tyson is a CPA. Amazing. All right, Dom, any parting thoughts? Any things you want to leave? How can people get in touch with you if they love what you have to say and want to talk more?

[00:55:29] Dom: You can find me on LinkedIn. That's probably my lamest place to find me. I don't know if people want to follow me on Twitter. I'm not all that exciting. Yes, just find me on LinkedIn.

[00:55:37] Tyson: Could they take your class?

[00:55:40] Dom: If they pay tuition?

[00:55:41] Tyson: Yes.


[00:55:43] Tyson: I would hope do people. I thought that that's still how school works.

[00:55:47] Alexa: People do then.

[00:55:48] Tyson: They pay tuition, then we get taught something for now. Yes.

[00:55:52] Alexa: For now. Yes for now. Well, you can find Dom Merritt on LinkedIn and Dom, as always such a pleasure. Thank you for being here. I look forward to having so many more conversations with you on all these things in the future.

[00:56:07] Dom: Likewise, this is fun, I want to do it again.

[00:56:10] Tyson: 100%. [unintelligible 00:56:11].

[00:56:11] Alexa: We're going to hold you to it so.

[00:56:12] Tyson: We're going to hold you to it. You're going to regret you said that.

[00:56:14] Alexa: Stay tuned for Dom part two. Don't forget if you want to get in touch with Tyson or I or anything about The People Problems podcast, you can reach out to us at hello@peopleproblemspod.com or follow us on social at People Problems Pod on all things social.

[00:56:28] Tyson: Make sure you leave us a rating and review.

[00:56:30] Alexa: This episode was executive produced by me Alexa Baggio with audio production by Ellie Brigida of Clear harmonies. Our intro music was also done by the wonderful Ellie Brigida of Clear Harmonies. You can find more information about us and future episodes at peopleproblemspod.com or follow us at People Problems Pod on all things social. Thanks. Weird. Anyway podcast problems. All right, Dom you're the best. Thank you for this. We will edit this, shoot you a note when it's about ready.

We will publish this two weeks from now so not the 5th, the 12th and we'll share the link with you and we just ask that you promote it on your social and yes. As always I wish I could get more Dom time in my life. Yes, I'm okay with that. With my striped face.

[pause 00:57:23]

[00:57:38] Alexa: Sweet and obviously follow HR Shook if you don't already. Yes, I love it. All right, Dom, have an awesome night. Thank you. Talk soon. Bye. All right. He's the best. I love him. He's such a good human. He just like really is a thought leader in this space. That's why he is on our board. Oh yes, I got to stop my audio. Hold on.

[00:58:34] [END OF AUDIO]

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