69 - Spicy HR with @danfromHR

Tyson and Alexa are joined by possibly the spiciest persona in the HR space, Dan from HR, and it’s a hoot. We discuss the origins of his seek-and-destroy methods, but also his philosophy for positivity, his origins in video gaming, his move to HR for big tech, and his dreams for letting employees decide some crazy shit… like bonuses. Tune in for lots of spice and everything nice with @danfromHR

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Check out Dan's website: https://danfromhr.com/ + Follow Dan on: Tiktok (@dan_from_hr) LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danfromhr/ Instagram (@danfromhr) Twitter (hr_dan)

https://www.peopleproblemspod.com




Release Date: October 26, 2022

[00:00:00] Announcer: Morning. This podcast is about the realities of working in People Operations. This is not a stuck-up PC compliance-based or employment law podcast about stuffy, outdated HR practices. Shit will get real here and we assume no responsibility.

[00:00:16] Alexa Baggio: Just another day in the office. There is nothing better than a bunch of people who work in HR getting around a table and sharing these stories. We have this out-of-body experience in HR where you're like, "How did I get here?" It's not that bad.

[00:00:26] Tyson MacKenzie: It's not that bad. It's not.

[00:00:29] Alexa: Come hang out with Tyson and I on this podcast, we'll make you laugh.

[00:00:31] Announcer: This is the People Problems podcast with Alexa Baggio and Tyson MacKenzie.

[00:00:39] Alexa: What's up, Tyson?

[00:00:40] Tyson: Not too much. I did want to tell you about something.

[00:00:44] Alexa: Get right in there. Something's up. Here we go.

[00:00:46] Tyson: I'm so excited. No. It's totally random. I started watching this show on Apple. If you can imagine, I'd never really thought about-

[00:00:53] Alexa: I don't have Apple.

[00:00:53] Tyson: -the shows on Apple TV. No, I got it for free when I got my iPhone, and we were like, "Oh, we need something to watch. Let's watch this show that came up." It's called Severance. It's not what you think. It's not like termination or anything, but what it is, if you like cartoon concepts.

[00:01:10] Alexa: It's like a cartoon Human resources. I'm like, "This isn't what I thought it would be."

[00:01:13] Tyson: No, no, but this is really interesting. I wanted to lead this conversation with it because I'm so interested in the concept. The more of the show you watch the crazier it gets. Basically, this idea of Severance is people choose to be severed or to go through the severance surgery, and what happens is, they go to work, and they cannot remember anything from their personal life.

[00:01:41] Alexa: Oh, I've seen the trailer for this.

[00:01:42] Tyson: They know nothing about their Audi. That's what they call it.

[00:01:48] Alexa: Oh, cool.

[00:01:48] Tyson: Then when they leave the office, they know nothing about what happens at work. It's just like the challenges that they're going through with that but I thought it was so interesting because basically, it works for the company, because it's non-disclosure to the max. You can't even remember what you do at work. Because I'm like, "Why would anybody do--" At first you're like, "Why would anyone do this," but I guess the benefit to the person is you start to learn that they're all dealing with something really hard, like the death of a loved one, or a divorce or something that leads them to go through this severance surgery. That's how they get there.

[00:02:33] Alexa: The Severance surgery just severs you from your work life?

[00:02:37] Tyson: Yes. When you're at work, you can't remember anything from your home and when you're at home, you can't remember anything from at work.

[00:02:45] Alexa: Just sorry, pure ignorance here. You're going through something in life, like a divorce or something terrible, why does severing yourself from your work self, help that situation?

[00:02:55] Tyson: You don't have to remember something for eight hours of the day, and you can find peace for the eight hours that you're at work without having to think about the fact that you lost someone or whatever. Anyways, it's just a really interesting concept for a show.

[00:03:09] Alexa: Is it peace if you can't remember?

[00:03:10] Tyson: No, but I'm saying that's what leads people to do it, [inaudible 00:03:14] well, I'm not going to spoil the show.

[00:03:17] Alexa: You almost.

[00:03:17] Tyson: I'm not going to spoil the show, I haven't gotten that far in it. I just thought that the concept was so interesting.

[00:03:26] Alexa: It's a good concept. We've made a lot of bad TV. At least that's an interesting storyline.

[00:03:30] Tyson: Yes. No, Apple TV is decent. I will say. It's decent.

[00:03:33] Alexa: I don't have it. I can say that because every time I want to watch something recently, someone's like, "Oh, you have to have Apple TV." I'm like, "Yes, cool. Still don't have that." Must be decent. Like Ted Lasso, and a set of the things I haven't watched. Amazing. Well, age-old conversation about work self and personal self, which maybe we can get into today, but before that, I'm going to pay the bills. Give me a hot second.

Today's episode is brought to you by our community, The People Ops Society, Join our community of listeners, and people Ops professionals and perhaps you can use the forum for feedback, download awesome resources and templates shared by your peers and get access to cool free resources like Tyson's Art of Compensation course. Use the code peopleproblems@peopleopssociety.com to get 20% off your membership again use the code peopleproblems@peopleopssociety.com to join our listener community and then shameless plug make sure to follow us on all things social @peopleproblemspod, @hr.show and @theinfluencehr spelled within HR.

Without further ado, I will introduce the next handle you should follow which is @DanfromHR and our guest today is Daniel Space who is both a director of HR BP in the tech space and obviously an HR social media mogul. The man behind DanfromHR on TikTok and possibly the spiciest guy on LinkedIn. Dan started as a music major and fell into HR and has had the honor of working for great companies like Spotify and Electronic Arts. Decided to start making TikTok during the pandemic and blew up well beyond what he could have hoped for. Daniel, welcome.

[00:04:58] Daniel: Thank you. Thank you.

[00:05:01] Alexa: How are you?

[00:05:02] Daniel: I'm very good. I'm blushing during that introduction. [laughs]

[00:05:05] Alexa: I did my best.

[00:05:06] Daniel: No, no, no, you did great. I was just like, "Oh, my God, I have accomplished these things." The fact that people know me to this level still keeps me [unintelligible 00:05:13]

[00:05:13] Alexa: You have accomplished being one of the spiciest, but most positive voices I think in this shit show that is social media that we spoke about a bit before this recording. You manage to be both, I think a bit of a viper, but one that spits positive venom. That's the perfect combination for someone who should be on social media heavily. We're big fans.

[00:05:35] Tyson: You're searching for the bad players I find. I find you're just having no shame and just calling people out.

[00:05:42] Alexa: I fucking love it.

[00:05:42] Tyson: Like, "Hold on a sec, wait a second. There's something wrong with this." You call them out. I love it.

[00:05:46] Alexa: When someone does something and I don't know how I feel about it, I'm like, "Let me see if Daniel's commented. Then I'll see how I feel about this." [laughter]

[00:05:53] Daniel: What's funny is I used to do that. That used to be my big thing, used to go out and search for it because it provided endless amounts of content. Then in 2022, I was working in-

[00:06:00] Alexa: Entertainment in short.

[00:06:02] Daniel: Exactly that. I was like, "Let me be more zen." There was one exchange that I had that I felt honestly really bad for. There was someone who was very young and she was charging resume advice and she was still in college. She had made a TikTok saying, "Here's the type of behavioral questions you're going to get." Then she listed experiential questions.

I said to her, I was like, "Those are not behavioral questions. If you're still in college you should not be giving resume advice and you've had one internship. With all due respect stop calling yourself a job search consultant." A few weeks later, she sent me an email saying that she had deleted her TikTok, that she had felt absolutely horrible and that she felt awful. Then I started to feel bad. I'm like, "You know what, you are allowed to have a voice."

At that point I stopped looking for people and when people started to tag me, all I would say is this does not align with my experience. That lasted for about five months and then someone said something absolutely egregious, I'm like, "All right, I'm back." I like to say I--

[00:06:54] Tyson: You've been back.

[00:06:55] Alexa: I was like, "I don't know where this is going but the story ends with you're back."

[00:06:59] Tyson: You're back.

[laughter]

[00:07:01] Daniel: I only find I'll only do it for the most egregious. There's been a few people that I-

[00:07:03] Alexa: Like the crying CEO.

[00:07:06] Daniel: Oh, you're wrong. No.

[laughter]

[00:07:09] Tyson: Or the guy who posted a picture of a homeless man. I'm pretty sure you comment on that one.

[00:07:13] Daniel: Oh, my God. That was horrifying.

[00:07:14] Alexa: That was pretty bad.

[00:07:15] Tyson: That was brutal.

[00:07:17] Alexa: That was pretty bad. I'm all for people fucking up, because again, I think people-- and again having recently experienced of it, you've just pushed it out there. You have no fucking idea because you can't anticipate all of humanity's responses to these things, even if you are trying to be thoughtful. Some of these especially on LinkedIn, which is just a devolving platform. [laughs]

[00:07:42] Tyson: It's going downhill fast.

[00:07:42] Alexa: It is truly devolving very quickly. It's refreshing. Really quickly before we go down the rabbit hole, that is your phenomenal persona on social media. tell us a little bit, first and foremost about how you got into the HR space, what your experience is and your passions. Then we'll go into the rest of your story and some other things.

[00:08:01] Daniel: Sure. I was a music major, as one does when one starts an HR career. When you graduate with a degree in classical tenor saxophone performance and there's four people that have--

[00:08:10] Alexa: The saxophone is sexy. At least you have that going for you.

[00:08:14] Daniel: It is. It totally is but for whatever reason, I decided to study the classical version instead of the jazz version. Then I graduated with a degree in it and I was like, "Okay, where are all the jobs?" You're like, "Oh, there's no jobs for this." I was like, "Thank you for taking $30,000 of my money for this useless degree." I ended up just doing, I think what a lot of college kids do, you go back home to your parents' city, I was Upstate, New York, I went back to New York.

I applied to 57 jobs, one after another and was consistently just getting rejected. I was doing everything from sales, marketing, IT, insurance brokerage. I ended up speaking with someone who was hiring for an office manager, but she was the HR manager. Within 10 minutes of the interview, she's like, "I'm going to stop you, you're not getting this job, but I feel like no one's ever taught you what you're doing."

She actually spoke to me for an hour and gave me a lot of really good advice and told me everything that I think we just do such a disservice by not telling college kids about these different job families, about different industries. By the end of it I was like, "I think I'm going go into HR." I then started to craft my resume and started to research what HR did and I found it's one of those endless loops of, you can't get experience if you don't a get job, you can't get a job if you're not experienced.

[00:09:19] Alexa: Can't be a waitress if you never waited tables.

[00:09:20] Daniel: Exactly. I eventually got my first job in HR was doing leave of absence administration for American Express and because it happened 20 years ago, I will now admit to everyone, I lied on my resume. I claimed that I knew what FMLA was, because I looked at an FMLA sticker and said, "Yes, I know how to do this. This is great" They hired. That was what got me into HR.

[00:09:41] Tyson: Fake it till you make it, honestly.

[00:09:43] Daniel: What led me to really be competent with it was that I understood it, it made sense to me. I felt like if I could answer these interview questions, within two weeks I got everything. It totally made sense, I was just learning their technology. Then afterwards I stayed within benefits for a few years, and then I really loved the idea of [unintelligible 00:09:58] Then I went back to school got my master's in HR, again, great use of $35,000 to --

[00:10:05] Tyson: Oh my God, don't get me started. Do not get me started.

[00:10:08] Alexa: Yes, Tyson is all about the dispelling the myths of paying for your master's.

[00:10:13] Tyson: I also lit $40,000 on fire, I might as well just burn that. [laughs]

[00:10:19] Daniel: It is so ironic there was 10 classes, nine classes were HR classes, one was finance, the only thing I can say I really got added value was one HR class and one Finance class.

[00:10:26] Alexa: Was the finance class.

[00:10:29] Daniel: The finance class was always like, this is phenomenal. Then I went to the HR manager route, I was about halfway through my stint at WebMD, and then the HR business partner model came out and I was like, "Oh, I was made for this. This is phenomenal." I did that WebMD for a few years and Electronic Arts recruited me and I'm a huge gamer. For four years, I knew what total job satisfaction was.

[00:10:48] Alexa: I'm going to ask a question I'm going to regret asking because I'm not going to know any of the things you're about to say.

[00:10:54] Daniel: It's fine.

[00:10:54] Alexa: What are your favorite games?

[00:10:56] Daniel: Oh, God, there's so many. It sort of depends on the [unintelligible 00:10:58]

[00:10:58] Alexa: What kind of gamer are you?

[00:11:00] Daniel: I'm an RPGier, but I do like some first person shooters. My [unintelligible 00:11:05] is a good store, give me a good story and some action with it, and I'm yours. Like The Last of Us, to me, one of the best games ever played. I actually have not played games in two years. I'm kind of on a three year stretch. I've given myself three years to detox.

[00:11:17] Alexa: All right, it takes a while when you--

[00:11:20] Daniel: Exactly. It's actually been nice just to enjoy life again.

[00:11:23] Alexa: You probably have a lot more hours in the day.

[00:11:26] Tyson: Wait, did you play Sims?

[00:11:28] Daniel: I did not play Sims.

[00:11:30] Tyson: I find a lot of people who work in HR used to play Sims.

[00:11:34] Daniel: I want to participate revenge out of the things were frustrated [unintelligible 00:11:37]

[00:11:37] Alexa: I'm trying really hard not to spit sparkling water up my microphone.

[laughter]

[00:11:42] Daniel: Although, it really made sense.

[00:11:44] Tyson: Yes.

[00:11:44] Alexa: Oh, Tyson, that was a really cute question.

[00:11:46] Daniel: Yes.

[laughter]

[00:11:48] Tyson: Did we not all play Sims? Come on. It was so fun.

[00:11:52] Alexa: I never played Sims because you had to have like the CD version for this Windows version of the PC you were on and we never had the right setup to play Sims.

[00:12:02] Tyson: I think that's where my love for drama started [chuckles] when I was playing Sims. [laughs]

[00:12:07] Alexa: Yes, I'm just going to drop a lemonade stand here and see what happens. Just fuck with everybody.

[00:12:12] Tyson: Oh, yes. It was wild, wild times, sleepovers.

[00:12:17] Alexa: I love it. All right, so you love RPG games, you go to Electronic Arts, HR business partner opens up, and then?

[00:12:25] Daniel: I finally understood what real job satisfaction was. I was sitting with the VPs of Product Marketing for all the different games, for Battlefield, Dragon Age, Sims, for sports games, for the car racing games, for the mobile teams. I'm like, "I'm fucking getting paid to do this." It's like sitting, talking about these people talking to how they're going to talk about their customers, and I'm like, this is-- there were Playstations and Xboxes set all over the place, there was this store where you got like five free games a year and all the EA merch. I loved it. It was amazing. The only reason I left was I was so happy. I was getting healthy. I was going on walks, I lost so much weight.

[00:12:56] Alexa: You're like, "Something's wrong, I have to quit."

[00:12:58] Daniel: Yes, I'm like, "What is happening?" I had work life balance.

[00:13:00] Alexa: Cool, so you're a masochist, got it.

[00:13:02] Daniel: I have friends and it was beautiful every frigging day and I'm like, "I got to go back to New York. I need breezy pizza."

[00:13:08] Alexa: I need to be unhappy and drink 12-dollar coffees.

[crosstalk]

[laughter]

[00:13:13] Daniel: I went back and that's where Spotify picked me. I stayed with them for about three years and then decided I just needed a break and opened the consultancy. The funny story about me starting TikTok was my cousin wanted me to get on it so that I could bond more a little bit with their daughter because her daughter wanted to build more relationships and she knew I liked social media. I was like, "What is this kids dancing app?" What happened, I put in top search out of curiosity [inaudible 00:13:36]

[00:13:35] Alexa: It really was a kids' dancing app, you're right. It started that way. How do they learn all this choreography like what is going on?

[00:13:44] Daniel: Entertaining on its own, and of course naturally the thing that got me to open a Tik Tok account someone gave that job search advice. At that moment I was like, "What? That's not right." I created an account and stitched a video, meanest thing I've ever done, ended up deleting the video because I I didn't know anything like Tik Tok and again this is a stupid person and they do not know what they're talking about. If you take their advice, they should have their account--

I didn't know that there's lighter ways to do things, she had like 250,000 followers.

[00:14:12] Tyson: You were unleashed.

[00:14:13] Daniel: All of her followers were attacking me and it was amazing. That's when I started making [inaudible 00:14:19]

[00:14:17] Alexa: Daniel Space Unleashed, I love that.

[00:14:19] Daniel: Yes, that's [unintelligible 00:14:20]. I became a bottle of thunder in TikToking [unintelligible 00:14:24]

[00:14:25] Alexa: You are a bottle of thunder my dear and I fucking love it.

[00:14:28] Daniel: Well, thank you.

[00:14:29] Alexa: Let's talk about so you go through this career and then you start your consultancy and then you've got then this other persona that's budgeting that's this like, "Oh, wow, I've got a voice here and there's some people that can or want to follow, want to listen." What are the things that are like pillars of your philosophy that you have pulled out that you're like the world needs to hear this shit that you think are-- and look, I know you do all kinds of different videos and LinkedIn comments and threads. You're just in a lot of places. I don't want to sum up what you do as like, "Oh, he's just about these three things." What are some of the pillars that you think you're putting into the world that are representative of the profession, as well as just your personal philosophy that you think are really important with the social media work and just the general work that you do?

[00:15:15] Daniel: I think my biggest one is informing. I have in the back of my head, if I ever have time and resources, I want to write a book called I forgot the title. As you can see, it's a very, very clearly beloved project. Essentially, it's less chance, more choice. Essentially, it's what I would want to give to college students because I ended up doing a small experiment. I ran internship programs for WebMD and I ran three of them.

There's about, I would say, about 50, 55 students that had started with me when I was 29 to 31. I went and looked at every single one of their job titles, they were assigned their role at WebMD by random, and almost all of them had last names of the different board of directors, of course.

[00:15:51] Alexa: Oh, yes, that works.

[00:15:52] Daniel: They were all absolutely lovely. We basically just randomly assigned them, "Okay, you get product, you get a finance person, you get an HR person, you get a salesperson." 98% of them are in a very similar title to where they are now, just higher up on level. Not one of them had the ability to make a choice to say, "You know what, I did this internship at marketing, I didn't really like it, I think I want to go more into data analytics." There's no one to teach you what that is and what that looks like and how you can take the skills that you have in marketing, reconfigure it, and show it to someone who would hire for a data analyst. You're essentially just screwed.

Then the worst people that I feel the worst for are people that started a nonprofit because they guilt you and they pay you $11 and some jelly beans and they're like, "You're saving the world, you can't ever leave, and here do free jobs."

[00:16:32] Alexa: Tax-free jelly beans.

[00:16:35] Daniel: "Here's your tax-free jelly beans and good luck," and they have some of the worst payment structures ever. The idea of informing our workforce and empowering them to know this information about what these different industries are like, what different companies are like, what different jobs are like so people can actually choose and make a career for themselves, versus being a victim of their own circumstances.

[00:16:54] Alexa: I know so many people. I was a product of the '08 recession on Wall Street. No one should feel bad for me, working on Wall Street out of college. What happened was they fired fucking everybody during the recession. Then we came in, we were all the prior interns and they were like, "Yes, cheap labor. Cool, we'll keep you." Then they were like, "All of the jobs we had assigned you before don't exist anymore. You go here and you go here, and you go here and you go here, doesn't matter what you wanted to do, you're lucky you have a fucking job, go."

I know probably a half a dozen people that are still in that line of work. I worked in municipal finance, which is, if you want to talk about fucking boring, municipal bonds for higher education and stuff that's really important work because people need to fund it, but just fucking watching paint dry. The culture is gross, and I know, at least half a dozen people are still doing that just because they're like, "I didn't have another thing to do. I couldn't get out of this once I was in."

I was pigeonholed and the money was good. I just wouldn't have known.

[00:17:55] Tyson: I wonder, though, how many people maybe tried to get out and then we're told by someone, whether it be a bad recruiter or a bad hiring manager like, "Oh, you don't have the skills for this job." Because they weren't looking at what-

[00:18:08] Alexa: No, they're all like me. You just get or you leave the fuck out. There's no keeping you.

[00:18:13] Tyson: That's what I mean. This idea, and Dan, you mentioned it about, looking at what you did here and repackaging that, the transferable skills. We love that word in this podcast lately, and how you can apply them somewhere else. Recruiters are getting a lot better at this, but I think hiring managers sometimes get stuck with like, "Oh, they don't have this exact HR experience or marketing experience or finance experience," then they're not looking at those. Those resumes just automatically, gone. we're getting a lot better at that, but I think it still happens.

[00:18:45] Daniel: I think you're right.

[00:18:46] Alexa: Sorting through resumes also just fucking blows. You think tech would help, but actually I don't think it's helping, but that's a whole different ball of wax.

[00:18:52] Tyson: It's not helping.

[00:18:53] Alexa: It's not helping.

[00:18:53] Tyson: Yes. It's not helping.

[00:18:54] Daniel: [inaudible 00:18:54]

[00:18:56] Alexa: Yes, exactly. People get all hot-bothered about what you tell them to do with their resume. It's just one tool. If it fucking works, just do it. You're 1 of 8,000 fucking resumes in my LinkedIn inbox right now. I got to use some sort of sorting mechanism here.

[00:19:14] Tyson: The problem is, is that tech, I think that sorts out people who have the potential for transferable skills. They're looking for keywords.

[00:19:20] Alexa: Transferable skills from a resume is hard. I just look at the story. I try to be like, "Okay, does it make sense what this person did?" Then did it again? Then what does that tell me they could probably be good at?

[00:19:30] Tyson: Wait, should we be writing cover letters?

[00:19:35] Daniel: Oh my God. I can't stand cover letters. I hate cover letter.

[00:19:36] Alexa: Does anyone still ask for cover letters?

[00:19:39] Daniel: This is the worst part to me is cover letters and thank you notes because those two things that are so archaic, are so useless. It's administrative homework that doesn't matter. 90% of the time, you're probably going to be fine, but what if you get that one hiring? Because there's no penalization to doing it, people still continue to do it just to get themselves that 0.005% chance and the thing that sucks, is you have out-of-touch hiring managers. Anytime I make a video about thank you notes, I'll get 100 people saying, oh my God, I'm glad I'm taking, you have one fucking manager. Well, I actually do make thank you notes and I'll always put a video response, someone ever says I had two equal candidates and one sent a thank you note, I went with them, I'm like, "One, that's bullshit. Every manager that tells that story is lying."

That's just the feedback that we've always heard, the thing to stand out. You tell a hiring manager was stuck between two people, I think that's a lie, generally three, or four and if you make a hiring decision based on that, I will challenge your leadership skill because you gave someone a job because they did an administrative piece, not based on your ability to think through which person would be potentially better for the job, it was an administrative piece of-

[00:20:41] Alexa: I love that because the other thing I also recognize is that that's one of those things that plays really well in certain roles and doesn't fucking matter in other roles. To be fair, I don't really give a shit how good at follow-up my graphic designer is, I give a shit how good they are at graphic design but my sales guy if he doesn't send a follow-up email with a next step and I heard you mentioned that guy, I'm supposed to talk to you next, that's kind of a flag because I'm like, "You're supposed to be doing this for a living."

It's like, there's no context, it's just like, "Oh, got to do it, got to do it, got to do it." Just like certain rules about resumes, I'm like, "They're all bullshit, they don't matter." Paragraph no paragraph, special interest, no special interest, personal interest, no person-- who gives a fuck?

[00:21:21] Daniel: [inaudible 00:21:22]

[00:21:22] Alexa: Yes, photo, no photo, who gives a fuck?

[00:21:25] Daniel: The one exception I will get for cover letters and I always acknowledged this and I actually am helping someone who hired me for this for a complete career switch because you don't want people to just pass by like, okay, this person is applying for [inaudible 00:21:37]

[00:21:37] Alexa: That's a good point.

[00:21:37] Daniel: But all they've been is performance marketing, they sent it to me by accident. That's the one spot where I think a cover letter could be beneficial.

[00:21:42] Alexa: Yes.

[00:21:42] Tyson: Or what about like a major gap, like a major gap?

[00:21:46] Daniel: Don't ever offer information that's going to disqualify yourself. If they ask, that's when you can bring it up but to talk about it in the cover letter, they might not even notice.

[00:21:55] Alexa: Unless it's like a--

[00:21:55] Tyson: This is a world I know nothing about like filtering through resumes, writing resumes, people always go like, "Oh, you work in HR, can you help me with my resume?" I'm like, "Probably not."

[00:22:06] Daniel: What element of HR are you in?

[00:22:09] Tyson: I'm a business partner, I've always been a business partner, I'm born and raised business partner so I don't know anything about anything other than being a generalist.

[00:22:17] Daniel: Very nice.

[00:22:19] Alexa: I just read resumes because I hire people, I have my own bias towards them clearly but also, I hate them. I think they're an imperfect tool but what isn't? Everyone's like, "Oh, well, fuck you, you got to talk to the person." I'm like, "Of course, that's better than the fucking resume." "No, I'd prefer not to have a conversation, I'd really just prefer the bullet point."

[00:22:35] Tyson: But you can't talk to everyone.

[00:22:36] Alexa: Yes, exactly.

[00:22:37] Tyson: You can't talk to everyone.

[00:22:38] Alexa: It's a waste of time. I've hired a lot of my team and a lot of prior people just on resumes but it's inherently biased just because they're easier to apply, they're easier to get to you as the hiring manager than they ever been before. Or to whoever's hiring on your team that doesn't make them easier to sort through, easier to differentiate from, et cetera, there's just a shitload of them because all the bots do it for you now, but anyway, enough about resumes, Daniel. Let's talk about some more interesting things.

You were saying that you've got sort of hiring advice is something that you've leaned into, but what else? What are some of the other things that you feel passionately about that you feel like Dan From HR is helping people understand about this profession? Maybe helping people push forward in this profession? What are some of the things that you just do with your TikTok engagement otherwise just been like all right, I got to get on a soapbox for a second?

[00:23:28] Daniel: My whole thing is, I'm an HR nerd. I love the human resources and what was really, really devastating to me was, I knew what my intentions are and I feel like I have a good understanding of what my colleagues' intentions are in all of our interactions. Up until the point where I stuck my head up in March of 2020, I thought everyone else thought of each other the way that I did and like everything else, it's a department that has its problems but generally speaking, we want the best for the employees. Our job is not to screw over but the level of hatred, the level of--

[00:23:57] Alexa: It's visceral.

[00:23:59] Daniel: It's horrifying, the first time I even made a video about HR, I remember, I ended up deleting it within an hour it 200,000 views, thousands of comments, HR sucks, HR is not your friend, estoppel of capitalism, I'm like, "What the fuck?"

[00:24:11] Alexa: Never fucking tell HR anything, I was like this so broken.

[00:24:15] Daniel: It's so biased, anytime I dare say that unions are not completely perfect, because I'll be very honest, the unions are not a perfect solution.

[00:24:24] Alexa: Yes, we're not super, we talk about union issues all the time here on People Problems, you're in good company.

[00:24:29] Daniel: In many cases, they're a great solution but at their core they're a banding because the employee and the management cannot align on something, and they need a union to come in and represent them and that's phenomenal that we have so many things to thank unions for. There are certain industries where they're just not going to be as effective, they're not going to be as valuable, but I dare say unions are not a universal solution, or I say HR is not absolutely evil, comment, Dan, I used to like you, but that was a bad take, that's terrible, of course HR [inaudible 00:24:58]

[00:24:58] Alexa: Just don't read the comments, that's the trick, just don't read the comment.

[00:25:02] Tyson: You know what though? Today I posted for the very first time so I never do this because I like to support my HR colleagues and comrades, like we're all in this together. Today, for the first time on Instagram, I really called out shitty HR and I think the reason I did it is because I saw these comments that was like, don't tell HR anything. This is why we should have unions. This is why I'm pro-unions, HR is the devil, all these negative comments and I'm like, no, that was just really shitty HR and like--

[00:25:38] Alexa: Which is when unions happen, my opinion is that unions happen when HR fails basically.

[00:25:42] Tyson: Totally and some people came at me, but just like very, like this is a pretty intense situation that's happening in Canada right now, but very high level what happened was somebody submitted a formal complains about being--

[00:25:54] Alexa: Is this the Bell Media thing?

[00:25:56] Tyson: Yes. She was discriminated against, she felt as though she was being discriminated against because she was a woman. She submitted a formal complaint to HR. She told her manager, submitted a formal complaint to HR, had a meeting to talk about this complaint on March 11th. Was called into a meeting on March 10th and told that she was being let go because of business decisions. I don't care, I'm sorry but that is bad HR, never in my career even as like a very very junior HR VP was I in a position where I didn't have enough influence to tell the manager, hold on, wait a second.

[00:26:34] Alexa: Wait, we talk to this person.

[00:26:35] Tyson: We need to finish this before we proceed. I have never ever, ever faced that and people are like, "Oh yes, like managers, HR doesn't make the decision, managers make those decisions," but no, HR needs to have influence otherwise why the hell are you there. Anyways, this fired me up today and I was like, this is just bad HR.

[00:26:56] Alexa: I love it, I can't get fired. I'm so excited and I'm just going to be able to poke in the barrette. I do think it's funny because I think ignorance is bread and black and white so the reality of that situation is there's probably a lot of nuance of how that should have been handled and it just wasn't or it was scheduled too late. Some administrative error, like stupid shit like that happens all the time but people are like, "Oh yes, just horrible HR has no say, whatever this is for management."

I've heard that story, like versions of that story probably three dozen times in the last two years of people just being like, something fucked up happened then something more fucked up happened and like, "Oh, HR doesn't give a shit." It's like, "No, that's probably not the case." It's probably that those people have been either rendered ineffective and been boxed out and the structure of the team is to be the doormat. Or there's someone, and I've ha seen this actually very recently, there's someone in that organization that is going to bat for that. They don't last very long either.

Either because they try to go to bat and are like, "No I'm out of here this is fucked." Or they try to go to bat and they just get silenced. Which is again, I think a lot of some of the things I've heard you talk about, Daniel, that I really appreciate are like the effectiveness and the function has to be in place correctly and thought of correctly, supported correctly, articulated correctly and I think that's one of the things you do really well with your voice is just articulate like this role is not here to be these other things.

It is a strategic function and it needs to be viewed that way, supported that way, funded that way, all those things but how do we get there when everyone's just like, "Oh, fuck HR. It's their fault." How do we do that?

[00:28:31] Daniel: I think, and this may be a very controversial opinion within this group.

[00:28:35] Alexa: Love it. Tyson is fired up, you're going to be controversial. I love this, podcast kindling.

[00:28:40] Daniel: To answer a lot of your questions, the way I see HR's big problem is that we do not do a good job of marketing ourselves. I would love to see a marketing business partner work with HR to understand better how to talk to our customers, build relationships to better advertise the things we do and essentially a lot of us are just locked up in a white tower. My big thing is that, and I feel very, very flattered, but every interview I have, every company I've worked with, I'm consistently told by my business leaders, especially you're the first HRBP that talk business to me.

Every time I'm assigned a business unit like when I started working at Spotify, I started taking programming classes because I wanted to understand how an engineer thought. When was doing data and analytics, I started to study SQL. I wanted to understand the language of my business to understand how they did that. I think as a result, the level of career satisfaction I got from that, it never felt like an administrative task in my brain anymore. It felt like I was front seat with the business helping build and create and shape where the business was going and that was so exciting. That's the level enthusiasm that I want other HR professionals to have.

[00:29:41] Alexa: I think they exist. I think you're on the podcast, at least one of them. I just think as we talk about a lot on this podcast is that that perception is still for whatever fucking reason like the new frontier instead of the norm. It's not, I don't know if it's because the educational structure for the HR space is still fucking 40 years behind mostly because it's run by a bunch of academics and the SHRM community, which is fucking-

[00:30:07] Dan: Horror.

[00:30:08] Alexa: -where ideas and fun go to die, let alone progressive business thinking. I don't know, Tyson, what do you think about that? Why is it still like that?

[00:30:16] Tyson: When I'm talking to other people, a lot of people have the same thought process. I don't think we are alone, Dan, you, and I in understanding the business, learning the business. I think that that is becoming more and more prevalent. When I talk to my colleagues, everyone's doing this.

[00:30:31] Dan: Awesome.

[00:30:32] Tyson: Which is amazing. I think where things start to get a little wishy-washy is ability to influence. Yes, you know about the business but now you have to take it that next step. How do we as HR professionals really start to influence because yes, we don't make decisions, but why are we there unless otherwise is to influence? We need to be that person in the room to say, hey, there is a live investigation happening right now. You're not to try to fire this person. This isn't like mom and pop shop.

We're talking Bell Media. Someone had to have been there and if it wasn't you as the HR person, it's part of your job to say, Hey legal, hi, the manager's trying to do this, Tell them not to. Then you don't do it. That's what I've been thinking a lot about lately. That's a theme that keeps coming up is just this ability, take your skills and everything that we do great in HR, but then apply influence.

[00:31:35] Alexa: Look, I'll be honest if I'm being optimistic. I think a lot of the rise of stuff like HR Shook and Dan from HR is like the cusp of this conversation hopefully changing, which is like, no, I'm not just some fucking administrative monkey sitting over here pushing paperwork, telling you that your benefits have expired and processing your terms. I'm here as a strategic partner. I think that's one of the reasons. Dan, I know you and I have had a slight exchange about this on LinkedIn many, many moons ago. I do think that's one of the strong cases for "rebranding". I say that in complete quotes because I do think it's important for people.

It's like when Elon Musk was like, "Okay, we got to make electric car sexy because otherwise no one's going to fucking buy them and then no one will fuck drive them. Then everyone was like, "The Tesla's the sexiest thing I've ever seen. I need an electric car. Now you can buy an EV Vault from Chevy and it looks like a fucking Fiat with batteries. You have to almost push the perception past where it should be in a way to get the norm caught up. I wonder in a way, what does that look like for HR?

If the goal is to make the people function really almost like the strategic consigliere of a healthy organization, how far does it have to go so that you can get to the organizations where-- I always used to joke when I got into benefits and got into this space like, "Oh, the day the Wall Street firms change is the day we know we've actually made some difference." Because those fuckers aren't changing anything anytime soon for anybody. They're the last bastion but what else has to happen and maybe what are some of the other roadblocks that you see just in getting there because I think we got to push the ball a lot maybe past the goal post to get this one where it needs to be.

[00:33:17] Dan: I agree. I think there's so many answers to that question. I think some of it's almost me based on the industry and on the person. The way that I see it out is I would like, in my mind's eye, I've created a new version of an HR position, what I call an HRVPX which essentially deals nothing with benefits, employees relations, HR AS, recruiting, payroll, they are--

[00:33:37] Alexa: It's ops, that shit is just pure ops, let's just call it what it is, fucking operations.

[00:33:41] Dan: Very important work, that's operations but the more you distract your HR BP with that, the more they're taking one-on-ones by employee didn't get enough competition, a manager who wants to do a counter offer and that causes everyone just spin for few days, have to have one on one meeting with every single of my directors then one on one with all my COE leads because all of them want to be updated.

Get someone to take all of that and just immerse ourselves into the business. This is heavy organization design, heavy workforce modeling, workforce planning essentially working with compensation as it relates to I would love to try new competition structures. I think one of the big things that companies don't do well is capped into the psychology that human beings like quick rewards. Don't wait once a year to give someone a $6,000 raise. Give someone a $500, $600 raise every month. Don't wait until someone is about to leave to look at compensation. Pay ahead of the compensation curve, Ann.

[00:34:32] Alexa: You used a dirty word, Dan, which is try and most people in HR have not been told they're allowed to try things. They've been told it has to be like all or nothing. It's like, well that's a fucking recipe for disaster.

[00:34:45] Dan: I do think what will help is hearing the success stories like that. One big thing I did at Spotify and Electronic Arts was both for very open to new ideas. I think that's one of the benefits to having an engineer as the CEO or someone who is who is like, "The only way we're going to succeed is if we can try weird, new things. I actually got some leverage to try new and exciting things no one is ever going to budge on the compensation board yet. I think that's a few years out but really just shaking up everything that we're doing. Nothing that we used to do before 2020 is going to work anymore. We have a completely new workforce, we have a clean slate. I think it's a really great time to advantage of.

[00:35:18] Alexa: Yet again, we have a changing labor market too, right? Everything that just happened for the last two years is about to go backwards and the foundation we were on for 30 years before that just shifted. If you're going to try some shit, now's the time.

[00:35:30] Daniel: Absolutely.

[00:35:30] Tyson: I also just think that the tolerance of the next generation is going to shake a lot of us to our bone. There is something about these little fucking Gen Zs that are coming in, God loved them, that I think they are pushing it. They are pushing everything. As a millennial, we thought that we were cool, but okay, yo, these Gen Zs, they know some shit and they're going to teach us all a lesson real soon. We need to pay attention, especially as millennials because we're going to be their leaders.

I'm very interested to see how that, because I feel like we've all just been following the rules for a long time and now this generation is like, "Stop it. Hold on a second. Not doing it."

[00:36:21] Tyson: Have you heard of Olivia speaking of Gen Z Wonder Kin.

[00:36:24] Alexa: Do tell.

[00:36:25] Daniel: Real quick 30-second story. Olivia, she's 19, she's a student in Texas. Her and another gentleman, I heard he was 19 years both got national acclaim because they were both the ones that took down that Report People for Abortion site, essentially the whistle blower. Together the two of them overloaded the site and crashed it.

[00:36:43] Alexa: Love it.

[00:36:44] Daniel: Then they got recognized, they got some chance to work in Washington DC and weeks ago there was a senator who attacked her weight, who basically made a negative comment about that. She made three or four videos mocking him for it and then she turned it into a fundraiser for abortion and raised two million dollars in weeks.

[00:37:00] Alexa: God bless her.

[00:37:00] Daniel: Then sent him a thank you card with flowers.

[00:37:03] Alexa: She gets it. She fucking gets it. That's--

[00:37:05] Tyson: They're so smart. They're so smart.

[00:37:09] Alexa: I love that.

[00:37:10] Daniel: At 19. I could barely figure out any of this.

[00:37:14] Alexa: Yes, I couldn't tie my fucking shoes at 19.

[00:37:15] Tyson: No, I was pulling myself out of a ditch somewhere.

[laughter]

Honestly. No, but I also think they're so savvy in making money and starting businesses and they're just it. They're very smart and I think it's going to shake up a lot of what companies are doing and we're going to have to adjust real quick.

[00:37:36] Alexa: I like it. All right, so rebrand or don't rebrand, Daniel?

[00:37:39] Daniel: I like the idea of rebranding my personal point of view and no one has been able to talk me out this, but I'm always open to suggestions. I did not like that HR split off into people operations. I hate human capital so I was really glad that fell by the wayside. Anytime someone says people operations, I'm like, "Oh, a room full of people?" I'm okay with people and culture but people operations just reinforces that--

[00:38:00] Alexa: I will say the more that we talk about this, the more I'm like, I was just pro not HR because like people have a visceral reaction when you say HR and like, okay, if you're going to have a visceral reaction, it's got to fucking go but the operations piece of the people operations piece I do think you might be right is maybe a little too limiting.

[00:38:21] Tyson: I love HR. I'm like, I'm holding onto HR. I like--

[00:38:24] Alexa: She really is.

[00:38:26] Tyson: Let's take back HR. There's this feminist movement to take back the C word so that it's not so insulting. That's how I feel about HR.

[00:38:37] Alexa: Brits never stop using it, so.

[00:38:39] Tyson: No, I know, but they normalize it so then it can't be demonized. I am like pro bring back HR.

[00:38:47] Alexa: So normalized HR?

[00:38:49] Daniel: Normalized HR.

[00:38:51] Tyson: I guess. Gosh, are we really there?

[00:38:53] Alexa: Got it, they're our new t-shirts for the squad, normalize HR.

[00:38:56] Tyson: Normalized HR. I don't like people and culture because I just feel like we always like are like, what the hell does culture mean? I'm not a fan of the using culture, but yes, I'm like, I'm still holding onto human resources. I saw this guy on LinkedIn, he said, think of it as resources for humans versus humans as resources. I'm like, I like that. I like that.

[00:39:19] Alexa: Humans not resources.

[00:39:19] Daniel: The reason I like [unintelligible 00:39:20] is that it's both. Because being totally candid, it's resources for the humans but it's also the team that utilizes and thinks of the humans themselves included as one element of their identity is the resource for the company asking for.

[00:39:35] Tyson: I like to think that is true.

[00:39:36] Alexa: It is people optimization. Because it's your goal is to optimize the people that you've got. How do we optimize this structurally on a human level? All the things. HRs job is to be like, "Okay, here's the team we got. How do we get them to play the best plays on the field?"

[00:39:51] Tyson: That's like a superhero. The people optimizer. That should have been in your Instagram handle.

[00:39:56] Daniel: [inaudible 00:39:56]

[00:39:57] Tyson: Let's make a video game.

[laughter]

[00:40:00] Alexa: We actually have an HR video game and it's amazing. HR Nightmare is super fun. Cool. All right, so let's talk really quickly, I don't want to skip over this and we're running out of time here because time flies when you're having fun. Daniel, talk to us a little bit about you have this wonderful mantra, philosophy, idea around the giving power to employees as a philosophy, which this space can operate within. I think it's really fascinating because it just is against all the rhetoric we just talked about, right?

It's like, it's nothing about the philosophy of give power to the employees. It's like anything that HR is fucking known for or vice versa. Companies just aren't used to doing that. I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable, probably to just even to hear it. If you're in management, or any kind of position it's like, "Oh, yes, we'll just empower the employees." I would love to hear a little bit about where that philosophy came from for you, and a little bit about how people maybe can implement it based on what you've seen in your work so far.

[00:40:52] Daniel: Sure. I think the first stem of the idea came from any time I talk about HR, and then I get the comments feature is not your friend, they're on the side of the employer. I'm like, "Well, all of us are technically on the side of the employer." That's the way the relationship exists.

[00:41:05] Alexa: They literally pay you.

[00:41:06] Daniel: That's the reason we're all here.

[00:41:09] Tyson: We're all here working for the employer.

[00:41:11] Alexa: We all get checks from the same guy.

[00:41:13] Daniel: I find that people villainize the term company, but all the company is is a building of brick and mortar and some legal tax code, it's full of people. Of course, you have people that make the decisions that impact you. When I started, where this all started the genesis from was the idea that people were treating HR as though they were not employees, when all of us are. We don't get this role through blackmail.

[00:41:32] Alexa: [inaudible 00:41:32]

[00:41:34] Daniel: [crosstalk] We are also employees. One of the things that I started to realize when I started to really pay attention to the biggest complaints that people had about HR, then conversely, looking at where HR was wasting its time, it all amounts to the same thing. Employees felt like they didn't have a voice, and HR has to do a bunch of one-on-ones to firefight.

Then I really started thinking, the amount of time that we get freed up, and the amount of responsibility and loyalty that can be had by really bringing employees in saying, look, this is your decision, own it. We have $18,000 for bonus, there's nine of you. Do you want to split it all $2000? Do you want to talk amongst yourselves on who you think should get more and who's not?

[00:42:08] Alexa: Fight to the death.

[00:42:10] Daniel: It's fight to the death. I think even experimenting with that a little bit, because the moment I talked about it for the first time people were like, "Oh, they're just going to get most popular," then that's on them. It was their decision.

[00:42:20] Alexa: Right. Then you learn in theory, yes, you get some organizational learning that way like, Oh, we did that shit. It didn't work."

[00:42:25] Daniel: Of course, it may make tons of mistakes first, but try it. The more you involve the employees themselves in the decision, it's all these decisions are not made up here. You know what, we have enough for three promotions, which three of you are getting promoted? I'll sit here and talk with you about it. Let's bring in some managers on the team but make it a team decision instead of the manager deciding. The best responses and the best engagement that I ever got from companies I was consulting with was the idea of bringing employees in, especially around the pandemic, and especially on do we close?

We can let go of potentially 30 people or we can all take a 25% reduction for six months and hope that things get better. Do we want hybrid, do we want remote? Do we want to all fall back in office, the more you engage with employees, the more that they feel like they have a voice in the decision-making, the better off they'll be. I think the perfect example of that is Apple who's being ripped apart right now because the CEO said, "We're back in the office, and they have like three or four different petitions going saying we're not going back," because you didn't talk to the employees.

[00:43:18] Alexa: Yes, we talked a lot about this when the return-to-work stuff started to come out. It's like, who the fuck did you ask before you announced this policy?

[00:43:24] Tyson: Totally. I think at the very least one thing that needs to be better. I love your ideas. I feel like that's very much like a future state. I think at the very least, people need to have more transparent process or transparent policy. Okay, if we're not going to let employees decide by fighting to the death, if we're not going to do that yet we need to at least at the very least ensure that employees understand how decisions about their compensation is being made. Does the manager have a budget? Is it performance-based? Is it based on percentages and levels and metric matrixes? At the very least make sure that people have understanding into this process. I'm learning this as a new mom, actually. If you give your kid options and you include them in the decision-making, they're a lot better off. I feel like we need to apply that to employees, to people freaking adults.

[00:44:22] Alexa: I was going to say, the general management philosophy is you're a fucking big kid. Everybody's an adult here, let's have an adult conversation. I'm not going to infantilize you, I'm not going to treat you like you need fucking policies to keep you in the office in a chair for eight hours a day. If I have to make a policy for when you need to work and where, we have a bigger fucking problem.

I think what's interesting about what you've said, Dan, is lots of it. I think a thread that maybe people don't pull on enough in this space, it doesn't get talked about a whole lot because of all the things we just talked about with the HR profession being a bit of the garbage can, scapegoat, reputationally anyway is idea of accountability, and organizational accountability. There's so much work that has to be done to strip down the language of like, "It's not the company. There's not the man. It's not a bad guy. It's like three fucking people that you can relate to who sat in a room and had a conversation and that was the outcome." To Tyson's point that maybe who needed to make that decision but we need to have a much better layer of understanding as to why and how to influence that in the future.

What the fuck are we going to learn from that if that goes bad. It's really, I think, a detriment to everyone who works full time to not look at the people profession and say they're the ones that can be there when those decisions happen to make sure that that organizational fingerprint gets better over time instead of these decisions are made in a fucking vacuum and then HR just takes the shit.

This idea of managerial accountability and power to the employee I think that might be the thing we have to ride past the goalpost to get the rest of this to come along with it where it should be. I think that's really fucking cool.

[00:46:03] Daniel: It probably definitely has a point, that transparency piece, it changes everything. I was known at EA and Spotify for going a little rogue.

[00:46:09] Alexa: You go rogue?

[00:46:11] Daniel: Yes, right?

[00:46:11] Daniel: No. You're a wallflower.

[00:46:16] Alexa: At Spotify for example, they shared that they did comp ratio, which is something that [inaudible 00:46:21] but they didn't share what the comp ratio was. I decided to violate that. I spoke to my leaders. I was like, "Managers, you have the numbers. You have engineers and data people, they're going to figure this out. They're going to start talking to each other. Let's just share it with them and let's explain how we get it. Let's explain that HR doesn't control the budget. We get something from the board.

They're the ones that give us this. The reason you've got only 3% is because everyone got 3%. The level of you have people who aren't necessarily happy, but they feel informed." That's where it all comes back to. Are employees feel informed.

[00:46:51] Alexa: Yes. I love that.

[00:46:52] Tyson: Nothing better than going rogue with a comp ratio. I am so here for that conversation. I remember when I was told my comp ratio. From a receiving end when I was in an organization, they didn't actually-- Usually sometimes you can see HR salary ranges, sometimes you can't. In this place, you couldn't. I was told my comp ratio and I remember feeling so much more trust for the organization. We had a whole conversation, "You know you were recently promoted, that's why your comp ratio is a little bit low. This is where we see you moving."

I just felt so much better. Now, a lot of people are doing away with comp ratios in general. I'm here for the comp ratio and I'm definitely, I love the rebellious giving people their comp ratio. I was like, "I love it."

[00:47:35] Daniel: Here goes, here it is.

[00:47:36] Alexa: I'm just here for giving people the context. There's just so much shit that happens. It's not hard to explain. It just gives people so much context, like, "Why." Well, let's start with the board indicates a pool of money every year that we're allowed to use to pay all of your bonuses." I guarantee you 90% of companies where that's the structure, the employees don't know that, that number is literally approved by the board.

[00:47:57] Tyson: Dan, you said they're going to find out on their own. I think this is what is also going to be so amazing about this next generation is one of these kids is going to figure out some little code on the computer where they can figure it all out and get everybody-- I've had that happen where all the employees were loading their salary onto a freaking Google spreadsheet that was going around and everybody was totally-- They didn't give a shit.

They're like, "Yes, I'm a level five and this is my salary." Then we're like, "Wait, what do we do here?" Then you have to react to that, which is never great.

[00:48:30] Alexa: Yes. Then you just look like an asshole because you're making up words.

[00:48:32] Tyson: Yes.

[00:48:33] Alexa: Yes. All right. Well speaking of assholes, that's not a great transition, but-

[laughter]

-I'm trying my best over here.

[00:48:42] Tyson: Let's do the people problem.

[00:48:43] Alexa: Let's do the people problem. You knew where I was going with that. All right, Tyson, what is our people problem for the day?

[music].

[00:48:59] Tyson: Okay, so our people problem is, and this stirred up a little bit of controversy on Instagram over the weekend, "Can HR be friends with employees?" I got both. I got polars coming at me on this one.

[00:49:13] Alexa: Yes, I'm going to let Mr. Space take this one.

[00:49:16] Daniel: Oh boy. The first level I'm going to say I think it's based on your discipline. If you're in training, if you're HR IS, if you're in benefits, it's probably both. I think [unintelligible 00:49:30]. The more risky is girls who are going to be like, "The HR generalists, [inaudible 00:49:32] business partner." I would say one of my best friends who I met at work at Electronic Arts and he was in my personal group. We ended up just getting immediately along and I ended up helping him with some video games and then he and I became really, really good friends.

I just disclosed that to my manager so that at any performance review and salary thing, when I would review it, I would just send it to her just saying-- Thank God, he was a really, really hard performer. I was never put into drama. I would say it's very few and far between and it always comes with a [unintelligible 00:50:02] but ultimately yes if you're adults you get to be friends with whoever you want.

[00:50:05] Tyson: Agreed. It's that idea of boundaries too. Obviously you're not going to be disclosing-- exactly. You're not going to be sharing other people's salaries with him and being like, "Hey, just so you know so and so is doing the same work as you but it's getting paid $5000 more. If I were you I would ask for an increase," and that's what came up. Is people were like, "Oh, if you have a friend they're going to get special treatment." That kind of special treatment where you'd be giving tips and hints on things.

Obviously there has to be a boundary. I like the idea of disclosing it to your manager. I had a similar situation a good friend of mine we sat next to each other. It ended badly in which she was part of a layoff and I couldn't obviously do the layoff and that was the shitty part of it. Was I'm sitting in these conversations and I'm hearing her name go around and I had to do everything in my power to bite my tongue and not be like no not her. She's got two kids. She just got all these things, she just bought chickens like don't do it.

[00:51:05] Alexa: She bought chickens.

[00:51:07] Tyson: That was really hard for me, having to actually go through that and be unbiased in that situation, but I think with boundaries like you said it can work.

[00:51:17] Alexa: I just think this is true of everything. It's like when there's a work relationship involved, Daniel, to your point earlier about doesn't matter what HR, what maybe what the brand or the persona is more like you're fucking a strategic function. You should think of us like that. Same thing with work relationships. You got to be respectful of the boundary when it's appropriate. Use your fucking brain, disclose things when it should be disclosed. Don't be an hassle, don't have nepotism, but like for the most part it's-- what is it? One out of four marriages starts at work and you get close to the people you spend on fucking day with.

[00:51:50] Daniel: There's a bunch of people having affairs and hot sexual relationships.

[00:51:52] Alexa: Yes

[00:51:54] Daniel: Hop into that chemistry, man.

[00:51:56] Tyson: We get involved in. We've been at those meetings where we have to tell them stop in the office.

[00:51:59] Alexa: Yes, you know all these shit.

[00:52:02] Tyson: We know the drama. I think my most toxic trait is befriending my boss, and I think that is what gets me into more trouble is the fact that I always become friends with my boss and then it's like, "Can shit-talk?" I don't know .

[00:52:16] Daniel: I actually think that's smart.

[00:52:17] Alexa: It sounds super smart. Tyson's sweet. She's the marionette master. We've talked about that. Befriending your your boss sounds like a good strategic move, but also I have plenty of friends in this profession and they're all like, "No, no, no. They're just very clear boundaries. I'm not going to talk to you about salaries. I'm not going to talk to you about reviews. it's just like we're friends for other reasons. If you're friends with me because I can talk about that then you can fuck off."

[00:52:39] Tyson: Yes, and what makes it easier is being remote. I find so I have a completely remote job so I can have friends at work but it never gets to a position where I'm drinking or after-work drinks that sort of thing, because we just have all these remote relationships. There's a bit of a barrier that prevents that sort of thing.

[00:53:00] Alexa: I will say though I do think to literally I think our first episode ever, Tyson, like it is okay to be friends with your HR people. They're people, they're humans. They're looking out for you. They're part of the ecosystem at work. They're not malicious. They're not there to fire you. None of those things are true.

[00:53:19] Tyson: No, that's how HR Shook was born. That's how HR Shook was born. I was drinking beer at work.

[00:53:26] Daniel: Beautiful.

[00:53:26] Alexa: Drinking on the job. All right, Daniel, if people like what you have to say where can they find you online?

[00:53:32] Daniel: My biggest thing is TikTok and LinkedIn so it's Daniel Space or Dan From HR and then it's DanFromHR in all my other social media.

[00:53:37] Alexa: I love it.

[00:53:38] Daniel: I am the middle of a website redesign. It's www.danfromhr.com. By the time this gets released, this website will be done.

[00:53:45] Alexa: Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed, I build in the house websites, you never know

[00:53:50] Daniel: Very, very true. Hopefully this site is up and running by then.

[00:53:53] Tyson: We're all waiting with bated breath for your book that you can't remember the name of.

[laughter]

[00:53:57] Alexa: No. Let's Chance More Choice. I like that. Yes I love it. Well thank you so much for being here. It's been a true pleasure. We would love to have you back. Keep up the good work, keep being extra spicy.

[00:54:08] Daniel: Thank you.

[00:54:09] Alexa: Yes, we'll see you again on People Problems hopefully.

[00:54:12] Tyson: Thanks, Dan.

[00:54:13] Daniel: Thank you so much.

[00:54:13] Announcer: Wait a minute before you leave take some time to leave as a five star rating. We'd really love your feedback. Also if you'd like to see our lovely faces each week as we're recording these episodes check us out on our new YouTube channel. Thanks.

[00:54:25] Alexa: This episode was executive produced by me Alexa Baggio with audio production by Ellie Brigida of Clear Harmonies. Our intro music was also done by the wonderful Ellie Brigida of Clear Harmonies. You can find more information about us and future episodes at peopleproblemspod.com or follow us at PeopleProblemsPod on all.

[00:54:40] [END OF AUDIO]




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